Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Michael R
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Michael R » 28 Sep 2012, 9:09am

kwackers wrote:
yakdiver wrote:I wonder why they sell eggs in boxes :roll:

Same reason they package your brain in a skull - millions of years of evolution to create the perfect balance between protection, mass and radius.
Why muck with it?

Evolution aint perfect. We only what works fairly well in most situations. Death and injury is the price you pay for that. To have a head which is safe from injury we would need one inch bone plate plus an inch of absorbent blubber between the skull and brain.

No living thing is optimally "designed". We are simply cobbled together in a way which works most of the time and have a finite life.

kwackers
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby kwackers » 28 Sep 2012, 9:22am

Michael R wrote: To have a head which is safe from injury we would need one inch bone plate plus an inch of absorbent blubber between the skull and brain.

Except that wouldn't protect against rotation injuries and probably would make it worse.

Except for extremists your average cyclist doesn't do speeds beyond what most humans are capable off on their legs (I certainly overtake enough whilst out jogging) therefore imo my point still stands. Our brains are encased in what for average use is something that's been fairly well tuned over millions of years.

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meic
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby meic » 28 Sep 2012, 9:30am

Jon Lucas wrote:I've just dug out this thread from 2011, which I didn't see at the time (and see there was a similar one in 2010), because I wanted to find out if anyone on this forum knows how strictly the helmet laws are enforced there now. I'm asking because two of my brothers live in Australia and one of these days I will, no doubt, make the journey there to visit them. If I did, I would obviously wish to use the opportunity to cycle in the country, and would certainly not wear a helmet, whatever the law says.


Have you thought about how you would go about this practically?

Times have possibly changed but when I was in Australia over twenty years ago, the Police outside of the cities would be best described as "redneck".

Would you plan to carry a lid then apologise and put it on if challenged
or point out that you are a visitor and claim ignorance,
or make a stand for human rights?
Yma o Hyd

Jon Lucas
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Jon Lucas » 28 Sep 2012, 10:24am

meic wrote:
Jon Lucas wrote:I've just dug out this thread from 2011, which I didn't see at the time (and see there was a similar one in 2010), because I wanted to find out if anyone on this forum knows how strictly the helmet laws are enforced there now. I'm asking because two of my brothers live in Australia and one of these days I will, no doubt, make the journey there to visit them. If I did, I would obviously wish to use the opportunity to cycle in the country, and would certainly not wear a helmet, whatever the law says.


Have you thought about how you would go about this practically?

Times have possibly changed but when I was in Australia over twenty years ago, the Police outside of the cities would be best described as "redneck".

Would you plan to carry a lid then apologise and put it on if challenged
or point out that you are a visitor and claim ignorance,
or make a stand for human rights?


I'm hoping their law will quietly fade into obscurity before I consider going over, or at least their enforcement of it will, hence my question. I've never been there and the first of my brothers emigrated 30 years ago, and I don't envisage travelling there in the next year or so, but if their helmet enforcement eased, that would certainly influence my plans. However, to answer your question, I would firstly state that I was a visitor, and that no such law exists in my country, and then if the 'redneck' continued, state that at the age of 60 and having cycled all my adult life, I'm quite aware of what factors make it safe for me to cycle and what make it dangerous, and take the necessary steps to ensure I cycle as safely as possible. These do not include wearing a helmet. I assume their prosecution is a fine on the spot, so would then refuse to pay it. And from there...

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meic
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby meic » 28 Sep 2012, 10:34am

Deportation probably. :lol:

My advice would be to try and keep the officer that you are dealing with as your "friend" be resolute but always make absolutely no challenge to his/her personal authority.
If you are lucky they may just class you as eccentric and think "its not worth it". Though they may take your bike back to the station for you to collect with a helmet if you meet a clever one.
Yma o Hyd

irc
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby irc » 28 Sep 2012, 12:38pm

Michael R wrote:
kwackers wrote:
yakdiver wrote:I wonder why they sell eggs in boxes :roll:

Same reason they package your brain in a skull - millions of years of evolution to create the perfect balance between protection, mass and radius.
Why muck with it?

Evolution aint perfect. We only what works fairly well in most situations.


Evolution only needs to get what works well. In the case of an egg it is evolved to be strong enough to survive being laid and having a bird sit on top of it while at the same time being thin enough for the chick to emerge from. It wasn't evolved to survive the journey from nest to supermarket to kitchen which is why they are usually boxed.

The human head has evolved to survive falls of up to typical max running speeds of 15-20mph. Usefully this also includes most peoples cycling speeds. This is why cyclist only fatalities are rare. The vast majority of cycling fatalities involve collisions with a vehicle where a helmet is of limited help.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

Steady rider
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Steady rider » 21 Dec 2014, 5:57pm

The 2015 Sports Science Summit, O2 London, January 13-15, 2015

http://lifescienceevents.com/wp-content ... TRACTS.pdf

Assessment of Australia’s Bicycle Helmet Laws
Colin F Clarke, Right To Ride representative, East Yorkshire, York, UK
In 2013 the BMJ reported ‘Benefit of cycle helmet laws to reduce head injuries still uncertain’. Even after 30 years of helmet promotion a number of questions remain. The evidence for helmet use is mixed. Helmets may offer some protection but also increase the accident rate and frequency of impacts compared with the smaller size of a bare head. Helmet legislation can lead to a number of undesirable consequences such as reduced cycling, lost health and fines. Public bike share schemes may also suffer by a helmet requirement. The helmet law for Australia is evaluated in detail.


Hopefully some new information may be presented.

Steady rider
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Steady rider » 16 Jan 2015, 6:34pm

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/au-assessment-2015.pdf
Full report.
'Evaluation of Australia's bicycle helmet laws'

hufty
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby hufty » 16 Jan 2015, 7:04pm

Yeah whatever, doesn't that Colin Clarke chap manage to arrive at the same conclusions about helmet compulsion wherever he looks, be it Australia or New Zealand...
Please do not use this post in Cycle magazine

Steady rider
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Steady rider » 16 Jan 2015, 8:14pm

b. Reductions in cycle use due to helmet laws
Evidence from Australia and New Zealand suggests that large numbers of cyclists will be deterred
from cycling by helmet legislation. In particular, there is specific evidence that helmet legislation
has reduced cycling in the following groups of people:
 Cycle commuters
 Children cycling to school
 Teenage cyclists


http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... ncebrf.pdf

One study found that cyclists with helmets have a 14% higher injury risk per mile travelled than
non-wearers47.


Both Australia and New Zealand introduced laws in the 1990's and have the same helmet standard and both enforced their laws, so if the outcomes are similar that could be expected.

TonyR
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby TonyR » 16 Jan 2015, 8:46pm

hufty wrote:Yeah whatever, doesn't that Colin Clarke chap manage to arrive at the same conclusions about helmet compulsion wherever he looks, be it Australia or New Zealand...


Isn't that what you'd expect? Or do you expect helmets to work in one country but not the other?

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pjclinch
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby pjclinch » 17 Jan 2015, 4:37pm

Well, they're "essential" here and remarkably uncommon just the other side of the North Sea... perhaps the force of gravity varies more than we thought over regional distances.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

Tonyf33
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Re: Australia: judge agrees helmet laws are unnecessary

Postby Tonyf33 » 20 Jan 2015, 6:18am

Given the stats and the save one life mantra of headway helmets have failed miserably, in fact on a net basis they are killing more..the numbers wearing them went up massively in the countries with mandatory laws but we saw little if any improvement or just worse records..same here..hugely more people wear them than ever before..have number of head injuries/mile dropped by anything like they should have, how many actual lives have helmets being proven to save?
Certainly the number of helmet wearers that say it saved their lives have increased exponentially yet going by the figures, pre helmet obsession era you'd have seen thousands of dead unhelmetted cyclists every year :roll: