I should have been wearing my helmet

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 15191
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Si »

mcslaski wrote: Is it reasonable to suggest medical professionals are deluded, or shouldn't offer advice unless they are also qualified materials scientists?


Well, I'll put it this way - next time I start coughing up blood and phlegm, I think that I'm best off going to see a doctor not a materials scientist :wink:
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by beardy »

...but if you want to know about the impact energy absorption of polystyrene when cracked rather than crushed?
Who even knows what a material scientist is?
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56367
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Mick F »

Does anyone remember my experiment?
Am I a "material scientist"? :wink:

I had an old helmet and put a bag of sand and gravel into it. I'd weighed my head and made the bag of sand and gravel to the same weight.

I then repeatedly dropped my hemet onto a solid concrete surface to see what happened.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=79382&start=75
Mick F. Cornwall
User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 15191
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Si »

Mick F wrote:Am I a "material scientist"? :wink:


Well, you've certainly done much more original scientific research on helmets than any surgeon I know!
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yes - and with an acknowledgement that the research was limited.

Population studies (which are the only ones that come close to being statistically relevant, simply due to the extreme rarity of significant injury events) show no benefit from helmet *compulsion*.

The line between compulsion and *promotion* is very thin, and the one result we can categorically confirm from the stats is that promotion/compulsion of helmet wearing decreases the number of people cycling, and miles cycled. The most obvious conclusion of that is a massive cost in terms of health issues caused by a sedentary lifestyle (Type 2 diabetes, obesity, cardiac conditions) especially strokes - yes brain injuries could* actually be *increased* by helmet *promotion*.


* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligable increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Edwards
Posts: 5982
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 10:09pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Edwards »

[XAP]Bob wrote:* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligable increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury


Now that is massaging the figures to only use a small group that can not be identified by any know scientific method. :D
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar
Mike Sales
Posts: 7898
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Mike Sales »

Edwards wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligable increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury


Now that is massaging the figures to only use a small group that can not be identified by any know scientific method. :D


I am afraid that I don't understand your point.
Bob makes the point that there is a rather small number of serious head injuries to cyclists. This group is readily identified. Then there is a much larger number of stroke victims with brain damage. This number is also readily identifiable. The size difference of the two groups is such that a small percentage increase in the stroke damage group would be rather bigger than the total of cyclist brain damage victims, let alone any difference helmet wearing could make to brain damaged cyclist numbers. He does not make any claim for rigour in this thought, let alone provide statistics, so I don't see how he can be accused of massaging figures. He doesn't even give any figures!
Myself, I think that he is very probably right. Strokes are a major killer. There are not many cyclists killed by head injury, some of those were wearing a helmet, and not all of the bareheaded would have been saved by wearing one, even on the most optimistic liddite estimates, if we leave out the thoroughly discredited 85% figures.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Edwards wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligible increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury


Now that is massaging the figures to only use a small group that can not be identified by any know scientific method. :D


Really?
How can I be massaging figures if I don't provide any...

I've had ten minutes after my latest conference call, and the Stroke Association provides a well referenced factsheet (I haven't traced and checked the references)...

OK - from http://www.stroke.org.uk/sites/default/ ... istics.pdf
152,000 strokes/year
20% are fatal
>50% of the remainder (i.e. >40% of the total) leave the survivor dependant on others for everyday activities (22% have "severe" or "very severe" disabilities as a result)

Exercise:
High blood pressure contributes to 50% of strokes
Moderate physical activity can reduce the risk of stroke by up to 27%
Being physically inactive increases your risk of ischaemic stroke by 1.5 (not sure if this is 50% or 150%)
Percentage of adults meeting the recommendations for physical activity (2009) 45% men, 33% women (I've smudged these rather than leaving the four countries of the union separated). Around a third of adults in 2009 were "inactive", doing less than one 30 minute session of exercise a week.

So - if we reduce the risk of a stroke (which has a >50% chance of rendering someone disabled, >17% severely disabled, ~20% dead) by 27% for 1/3 of the UK population (20 million people) we reduce stroke incidence by (152k/3*.73) 13.5k strokes/year.

That's about 2800 deaths, 2400 severe/very severe disabilities, 6800 disabilities (enough to rely on other people for everyday tasks).....



Let's look at it the other way round:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/ctc-cycling-statistics
Around 8% of the population (3 million people) cycle 3 times a week or more

And looking at various studies a 25% reduction in cycling is a reasonable estimate for results of compulsion:
That's 3000000*.25 = 750k people who have a 27% increase in risk of stroke... an additoinal 500 strokes per year:
That's about 100 deaths, 85 2400 severe/very severe disabilities, 250 disabilities (enough to rely on other people for everyday tasks).....



I'd happily contend that *not* cycling is riskier than cycling (with or without lid)...
Yes there are other forms of exercise, but cycling is an excellent example of the sort of exercise that can be done very cheaply, and without significant time investment (you have to travel to the shops/work anyway) and that sort of exercise is very easy to keep up with. There are also other forms of disease...
Last edited by [XAP]Bob on 21 Mar 2014, 1:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Edwards
Posts: 5982
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 10:09pm
Location: Birmingham

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Edwards »

[XAP]Bob wrote:* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligable increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury


[XAP]Bob wrote:Really?How can I be massaging figures if I don't provide any...


Mike Sales wrote:I am afraid that I don't understand your point.Bob makes the point that there is a rather small number of serious head injuries to cyclists. This group is readily identified.


Not if you only count "serious cyclists" Hence the smile. :lol:

Are we only counting brain injuries or including head injuries as well?
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar
User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10801
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Cunobelin »

Mick F wrote:Does anyone remember my experiment?
Am I a "material scientist"? :wink:

I had an old helmet and put a bag of sand and gravel into it. I'd weighed my head and made the bag of sand and gravel to the same weight.

I then repeatedly dropped my hemet onto a solid concrete surface to see what happened.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=79382&start=75



This is one of the real problems with helmet tests - the "ideal situation" where they know it will perform.

It is howener not related to reality where the impact will be far more complex. Take "snag points" and their proable cause in rotational injuries or the helmet being ejected from the head......... A simpl drop test will never be able to reproduce his type of impact
User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10801
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Cunobelin »

Edwards wrote:
TonyR wrote:Challenging and questioning is welcome - its how understanding moves forward - but please make it evidence based and not "a helmet saved my life" or "somebody told me" anecdote


You will not find any of those that are attractable to me.

Unless you count what Neurosurgeons stated and these people are quoted by both sides. Except some that claim helmets do no good, claim this as evidence.
I make no such claims and use this as an example of how some sections can state different views. But as it now seems accepted that any Neurosurgeon should not make any statement on this subject due to their lack of knowledge of helmets and the causes of head injury, I can leave you alone.



... or the hypocrisy of only applying this criteria in a small group when it could be so effective elsewhere.

It is a bit like a physiotherpist or sports medicine specialist only treating runners, and refusing to treat rugby players, footballers or swimmers with the same injury mechanisms.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7898
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Mike Sales »

Edwards wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:* I've not got stats to hand, but on the basis of the very low number of serious cyclist head injuries it would take a virtually negligable increase in stroke rate to make an absolute increase in brain injury


[XAP]Bob wrote:Really?How can I be massaging figures if I don't provide any...


Mike Sales wrote:I am afraid that I don't understand your point.Bob makes the point that there is a rather small number of serious head injuries to cyclists. This group is readily identified.


Not if you only count "serious cyclists" Hence the smile. :lol:

Are we only counting brain injuries or including head injuries as well?


Oh, I see, a joke. Sorry for missing it.
How does the joke relate to your "massaging figures" accusation? Was that a joke too. Sorry for my lack of humour.
Neither Bob nor myself did any counting of head injuries or of brain injuries. Does it matter. The point is that the number of cases of brain injuries is tiny in relation to the brain damage produced by strokes. Or have I missed another joke?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
MartinC
Posts: 2135
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by MartinC »

Edwards wrote:........................when somebody posts that some Neurosurgeons state about helmets being bad, this is not questioned.................



This to me is another example of the inherent bias in in the debate. I can't recall any post on this or any other forum quoting a neurosurgoen saying that helmets are bad. I've seen quotes that some neurosurgeons are sceptical about the benefits of helmets and I've seen quotes that some neurosurgeons are in favour of them but never ever one that says they are bad.

It's sloppy logic that says that if your not a proponent of helmets then you must be against them and denies the totally rational position that you can't see any robust evidence that they're effective and therefore you think they're a great irrelevance. This false dichotomy that you must either be for or against helmets seems to be the exclusive preserve of the helmet evangelists and smacks of paranoia.
User avatar
Tigger
Posts: 491
Joined: 3 Jun 2012, 12:00pm
Location: Isle of Lewis

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by Tigger »

Cunobelin wrote:...In an article, Mayer Hillman looked at the ratios of death due to Head Injury and these were the results

Pedestrian 39.14
Cyclist 8.46
Motor vehicle driver 24.94
Motor vehicle passenger 15.55
...

Interesting stats indeed! Have you got a link to the article, Cunobelin? I'm getting a server error (on http://www.mayerhillman.com) when I try to look at possible articles subsequent to the 'obvious' search terms.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: I should have been wearing my helmet

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Tigger wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:...In an article, Mayer Hillman looked at the ratios of death due to Head Injury and these were the results

Pedestrian 39.14
Cyclist 8.46
Motor vehicle driver 24.94
Motor vehicle passenger 15.55
...

Interesting stats indeed! Have you got a link to the article, Cunobelin? I'm getting a server error (on http://www.mayerhillman.com) when I try to look at possible articles subsequent to the 'obvious' search terms.

Do you look at hourly or per mile exposure to work out what these stats mean?

If I am looking at transport cycling then I look at per mile, looking at recreational cycling per hour is more appropriate.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Post Reply