Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear banned

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Tonyf33
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Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear banned

Postby Tonyf33 » 25 Jul 2014, 3:11pm

I was watching the boxing at the Commonwealth games and surprised to see the amateurs boxing without headguards..now apparently this was a change in the sport last year due to the increased concussions (both numerically & forces involved) of boxers wearing headgear as the headguard amplifies the blow as opposed to just the human head.
Yes there are a greater chances of a cut but compared to increasing the chances of a concussion it's a small price to pay IMO.

I think that helmet wearing in cycling has a long way to go in terms of understanding the pitfalls and increased chances of concussion and the blanket bombardment of wearing a helmet is actually detrimental in other ways that people just do not see nor understand (or want to understand :twisted: )
(I'm on the case to find UK stats on increases of concussion in cycling, in the US it is stated that is the case)
When you have medical experts from a contact sport determining that headgear is actually detrimental then those forwarding helmets & MHL need to sit up and take note!

One quote from a comment via the daily mail link is quite indicitive of those wearing cycle helmets taking more risks...
" I boxed myself for some 13 years, as a schoolboy, youth and through to senior level. I never once wore a head guard, hated them. The main problem is that with a head guard on, you feel that you can't be hurt. Boxers wearing head guards will generally carry their hands lower down, and therefore, they take more blows to the head. The overall mobility of the head in avoiding the punches is drastically reduced, and you can still be knocked out wearing one"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z38UKu5eNs

I'm not saying a punch to the head is the same as striking the ground but the forces involved are in the range were those whom are wanting to protect are actually making matters worse

http://www.wtae.com/news/thousands-gett ... 38#!bl1Oz6
Last edited by Tonyf33 on 25 Jul 2014, 9:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bovlomov
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby bovlomov » 25 Jul 2014, 4:04pm

It isn't just changes in behaviour. Greater area = easier target and greater rotational forces.
= Law of Unintended Consequences

Steady rider
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Steady rider » 25 Jul 2014, 9:20pm

http://papers.sae.org/720970/

http://www.smf.org/docs/articles/hic/Ki ... I_2003.pdf

It appears the damage relates to a combination of factors included duration of acceleration.

The number of impacts will increase by wearing helmets, the duration may also increase and the level of acceleration may decrease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23770518

of course cycling is more than just about safety.

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/head-helmet.doc

profpointy
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby profpointy » 25 Jul 2014, 10:27pm

Unfortunately facts are not pertinent to the Great Helmet Debate, because it is "stupid not to wear one" and you can prove anything with facts after all, so facts don't count. Think of the children - well not the strangled children obviously, and it would of course be stupid to wear one in a car or as a pedestrian.

MartinC
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby MartinC » 26 Jul 2014, 9:34am

There appears to be a far more sophisticated understanding of the issues around head protection in boxing. It would be interesting to know why.

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Shootist » 26 Jul 2014, 10:01am

It's still a rather hypocritical situation with boxing, as wearing boxing gloves allow a boxer to hit much harder without injuring his hands. Brain damage in that sport could be reduced yet further if boxers didn't wear gloves but fights would be very much more messy, and we can't have mess on public display now, can we. It's like when boxing supporters speak of the skill and science in boxing in order to elevate it above the status of two men battering hell out of each other to win a fight. Sheer hypocrisy.
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Steady rider
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Steady rider » 26 Jul 2014, 10:42am

He looked at research involving 15,000 boxers, half of whom had competed with headgear and half without.

He found that in the 7,352 rounds that took place with boxers wearing headgear, the rate of concussion was 0.38 per cent, compared with 0.17 per cent per boxer per round in the 7,545 rounds without headgear.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z38UKu5eNs

The data is perhaps easier to monitor and data collection fairly reliable. The larger size of having head protection probably means more blows are landed and head rotation may increase compared to the smaller size of a bare head. The combination of more blows and rotation could result in more concussions, or the data seems to show this.

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby BeeKeeper » 26 Jul 2014, 5:20pm

Steady rider wrote:The larger size of having head protection probably means more blows are landed and head rotation may increase compared to the smaller size of a bare head. The combination of more blows and rotation could result in more concussions, or the data seems to show this.


That's just supposition, could be true, might not be. Looks to me as if you are trying to draw an inference with cycle helmets on shaky evidence - the old "cycle helmets make your head larger so you are going to hit more things" and "cycle helmets make your head bigger so you suffer more rotational injuries." The evidence for these is pretty sparse. For example, a larger diameter head would actually make your head rotate slower and the helmet is also not fixed rigidly to the skull so there will be some degree of buffering of the shock. I'm not saying cycle helmets are effective, the evidence doesn't support it but the reasons why this is so are still poorly understood. If it was well understood we wouldn't endlessly be arguing about it.

My reading of the article was the boxers were hit more often because their head was heavier so they couldn't move it out of the way quickly and this also probably (supposition!) meant they received a heavier blow than if they had been able to "roll with the punch". The other reason for being hit more often was the boxer's field of vision was reduced.

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Steady rider » 26 Jul 2014, 8:33pm

Assume a mean head width of 150mm, that is trying to avoid a central punch, say 100mm wide. Head would need to move 75+100 = 175 mm to avoid without compact. (correction needed, 125 mm)

Assume head protection of 25 mm thickness material, head would need to move 200mm to avoid compact. (correction needed 150mm)
My suggestion
The larger size of having head protection probably means more blows are landed

this part appears to be valid, the percentage increase may be possible to determine from past events where protection was worn compared to modern events without added protection, assume to be similar to the 0.38 per cent, compared with 0.17 per cent for concussions, 123% increase. So checking out old videos may be able to provide a reasonable estimate, I would be surprised if it was as high as 123% increase, assume 40% for discussion purposes.

Rotation could be from the torque, force x distance. Maximum distance for a bare head 75mm compared to 100mm for one padded, increase of 33%. From the above it looks like perhaps 40%+ more impacts and 30% plus more torque. Plus if the head is heavier and make movements slower could also be a factor.

Size & Weight

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-basi ... ear-review

The headgear’s size and weight will definitely affect your mobility, especially your head movement. The lighter and tighter the headgear feels, the easier it is to slip punches. Big clunky headgear might have more padding but you’ll feel like your head is a giant target and hard to cover when blocking at close range. Lightweight fighters will appreciate a slim headgear more whereas heavyweights perceive all headgear to be “light”.


The lighter and tighter the headgear feels, the easier it is to slip punches


From the basic evidence there are reasonable grounds to suggest that
The combination of more blows and rotation could result in more concussions


Measuring rotation could be quite complicated.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z38bXwZALF
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook 2012 article
Though all of the padding combinations offered some reduction in linear impact forces, they did not lessen rotational impact forces.


heavier type
https://www.fs-martialarts.com/?section=item&id=9
600 grams,
lighter type
https://www.fs-martialarts.com/?section=item&id=12
280 grams.
head mass increase between about 5% and 11%.
Last edited by Steady rider on 26 Jul 2014, 8:55pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Jul 2014, 8:37pm

One does wonder in the modern age why a sport designed to inflict focused brain injury is still allowed

It was shown many years ago that there are significant brain tissue damage changes in boxers when compared with a control group

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby profpointy » 27 Jul 2014, 9:45am

although I'm no fan of boxing, and find it distastefull to watch, I'm very wary of the notion of banning stuff. It is very easy for the-great-british-public goaded on by some Esther Rantzen "if it saves one life" argument to justify a ban on caving, winter-hillwalking, rugby and, yes, cycling - so calling for bans of something I disapprove of is a very slippery slope

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby [XAP]Bob » 27 Jul 2014, 9:49am

And to be fair - you enter the "sport" knowing that the objective is to cause brain damage.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Jul 2014, 10:04am

profpointy wrote:although I'm no fan of boxing, and find it distastefull to watch, I'm very wary of the notion of banning stuff. It is very easy for the-great-british-public goaded on by some Esther Rantzen "if it saves one life" argument to justify a ban on caving, winter-hillwalking, rugby and, yes, cycling - so calling for bans of something I disapprove of is a very slippery slope

This - how do cycling and boxing compare v-a-v annual fatalities, I wonder?

And yes, I know that life's a bit more sophisticated than that particular piece of analysis, but politics has a tendency not to be, IME.

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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Vorpal » 27 Jul 2014, 12:51pm

Steady rider wrote:The data is perhaps easier to monitor and data collection fairly reliable. The larger size of having head protection probably means more blows are landed and head rotation may increase compared to the smaller size of a bare head. The combination of more blows and rotation could result in more concussions, or the data seems to show this.

Or perhaps the data show that boxers wearing headgear don't protect their heads as well?
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Tonyf33
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Re: Increased Concussion/head injury in boxing..headgear ban

Postby Tonyf33 » 27 Jul 2014, 11:59pm

Vorpal wrote:
Steady rider wrote:The data is perhaps easier to monitor and data collection fairly reliable. The larger size of having head protection probably means more blows are landed and head rotation may increase compared to the smaller size of a bare head. The combination of more blows and rotation could result in more concussions, or the data seems to show this.

Or perhaps the data show that boxers wearing headgear don't protect their heads as well?


I spoke to my brother today, he boxed at a fairly high level amateur wise when headguards were not around, he basically said exactly that, that without a headguard you are more mindful to duck and weave to avoid being hit, with them less so..risk compensation at work. That the headguards actually provide more leverage when struck at the 'scoring' point at the top of the forhead which actually increases the forces involved makes them so obviously a problem I'm surprised they were ever brought in tbh..but that's the workings of certain types whom wade in and think X is going to work because it is covering up and protecting when in fact it creates/increases the dangers.

Yes there are aspects of boxing that are unavoidable given the nature of the sport but removing headgear that does actually increase damage to the head/brain is a step closer to making it safer within the boundaries of a contact sport.
I also think the comparison between boxing headgear and cycling helmets is very much in alignment, both can work for lesser injuries but actually both increase the chances of being hit in the first place thus increasing the risk factor and probability of striking ones head in the first instance as well as potentially increasing the blow in itself.
A study in the US regarding American Football concussions suggested that helmets have a diminishing return with regard to protection and one would need a helmet several feet across to protect the head fully, that the consequences elsewhere on the body would make it totally impractical probably wouldn't put off an organisation such as headway :twisted: