York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
bikepete
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York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby bikepete » 17 Aug 2014, 11:30am

<mod: note, this thread is a copy of part of viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90138 which appears to have gone down the helmet debate route. Moved here so that information about the event does not get drowned out by helmet argument>


Entries are invited for the York Rally Grande Classic Sportive on the 21st September 2014. Three routes are available, taking riders north of York from the start point at Wiggington Village Hall into the Howardian Hills and then on into the North York Moors. An easy 36 km family route stays largely on the flat, while the 100 km and 140 km routes both take in spectacular Moors scenery. The challenging 140k includes the fearsome Rosedale Chimney Bank - with an optional bypass route for those who don't fancy its severe gradients! Refreshments, sag and broom wagons and marshalls at difficult junctions will all be provided. Visit the York Rally Grande Classic Sportive web page for maps, GPX & KML downloads and to enter online.

This Sportive is being organised as a fundraiser by the volunteer committee which is working to revive the York Rally: the event will return to York's Knavesmire on the 20-21st June 2015. The new committee is working independently and is starting from scratch (although benefitting from the long experience of many York Rally stalwarts who have stepped forward once again to volunteer). We need to raise funds to cover the advance costs of a 'back to basics' event, to carry on the decades-long tradition of the Rally as a cycling get-together to meet old friends and enjoy cycling fellowship. Full details of the committee and current plans are on the new York Rally website and any support or feedback at this early stage will really help. There is a Friends of York Rally supporter's club and if you have ideas for us, or could dedicate any time as a volunteer, please do contact the committee or come along to our next meeting in York on the 13th September, downstairs at 'York Bike Shed', Micklegate, York, 10AM. Clubs, associations and cycling interest groups of all sorts are warmly invited to be at the Rally too: we have almost unlimited space on the Knavesmire for anyone to run activities or just to gather and catch up.

All funds raised from the Sportive will be used to stage the Rally in 2015. Please do join the Sportive and we look forward to meeting you there on the 21st September and also next June on the Knavesmire in York!

Peter Eland
Publicity Officer
York Rally Committee

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gaz
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby gaz » 17 Aug 2014, 7:01pm

Could you please outline the "helmet policy" for the sportive.
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bikepete
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby bikepete » 17 Aug 2014, 7:20pm

Hi Gaz, I'll enquire and get back to you ASAP! Cheers Peter

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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Aug 2014, 7:24pm

gaz wrote:Could you please outline the "helmet policy" for the sportive.


Following all the links, I came to British Cycling "Riders T's and C's" which include:-

13. I accept that it is my responsibility to provide and use a suitable bicycle and helmet. The Event Organiser’s decision is final as to whether the bicycle and helmet are suitable.


http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/search ... s-and-Cs-0

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gaz
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby gaz » 17 Aug 2014, 7:45pm

Thanks for finding that, seems clear.

Edit: Thanks also to bikepete for his quick and comprehensive response below.
Last edited by gaz on 17 Aug 2014, 10:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bikepete
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby bikepete » 17 Aug 2014, 10:12pm

Paul Reid the event organiser just confirmed that it's obligatory according to the BC terms:

"The wearing of hard shell helmets conforming to CE standards EN1078 is mandatory for all riders participating in British Cycling registered events. It is the organisers’ responsibility to notify all participants, prior to event day, that the wearing of helmets is a requirement of the event. Participants who start without a helmet, or choose to discard their helmet at any other point of the ride should be withdrawn from the event, as this may invalidate the event insurance as provided."

Not our choice - as far as I know we mainly went with BC because it's a convenient online booking system which doesn't charge too much to event organisers.

I think I can speak for the York Rally Committee and say we're very much in favour of personal choice when it comes to helmets.

Our apologies to anyone who is put off by this BC policy - unfortunately we do have to stick to it to be insured for the Sportive.

bikepete
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby bikepete » 27 Aug 2014, 11:33am

Image

Event organiser Paul Reid (above, pictured at the 2004 Rally) has just written up his recent ride of the 100k route, which takes in some interesting gradients and spectacular views...

Riding the 100k Route - York Rally Classic Sportive

There are still places left at all distances, so sign up if you fancy a taste of the finest of Yorkshire's roads. Even if you can't join the Sportive yourself, it would be great if anyone reading this could help spread the word about this ride to riding friends or clubmates - it is helping to raise the funds we need as an independent volunteer organisation to finance the re-launch of the Rally in 2015.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby Philip Benstead » 4 Sep 2014, 8:17am

This subject has been done to death on the CTC Right to Ride yahoo group
No insurance company would insist upon cycle helmets, the reason is because if in a court of law it was proved that a helmet either cause or contributed to a cycle incident the company would be found to have contributed to the incident and hence libel for compensation.
I have this confirmed by insurance actuarially.
So the insistent on helmet is just a BC rule
By the way, show me where in the publicity for cycle helmet it says a cycle helmet will prevent or reduce injury or death.
So why are you giving in to this misinformation.



bikepete wrote:Paul Reid the event organiser just confirmed that it's obligatory according to the BC terms:

"The wearing of hard shell helmets conforming to CE standards EN1078 is mandatory for all riders participating in British Cycling registered events. It is the organisers’ responsibility to notify all participants, prior to event day, that the wearing of helmets is a requirement of the event. Participants who start without a helmet, or choose to discard their helmet at any other point of the ride should be withdrawn from the event, as this may invalidate the event insurance as provided."

Not our choice - as far as I know we mainly went with BC because it's a convenient online booking system which doesn't charge too much to event organisers.

I think I can speak for the York Rally Committee and say we're very much in favour of personal choice when it comes to helmets.

Our apologies to anyone who is put off by this BC policy - unfortunately we do have to stick to it to be insured for the Sportive.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
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Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
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Si
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby Si » 4 Sep 2014, 8:47am

copied from viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90138 to split out the helmet material

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Si
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby Si » 4 Sep 2014, 8:52am

Philip Benstead wrote:So why are you giving in to this misinformation.


I see no misinformation. It is a BC rule that helmets be used (no doubt due to UCI rules or some such). Because the organisers are now with BC, if they disobey the rules they might find that BC withdraw their backing and thus the insurance cover will no longer be in place. As they have stated that they chose BC because of the booking system I would think that losing BC at this stage would cause them a lot of pain.

Remember it is a fledgling event and they are going to do everything they can to make life easier for themselves.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby [XAP]Bob » 4 Sep 2014, 8:57am

EN1078 - the standard so weak it's not accepted in various places.
I *particularly* love the fact that they don't even say "EN1078 or higher"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

bikepete
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby bikepete » 4 Sep 2014, 9:06am

Thanks Si - your summary is correct.

Personally I almost never wear a helmet (sometimes when it's very icy and I'm not on a trike :-) ) so I feel your pain, and we do also recognise the serious implications of compulsion and why people are concerned. But we're a small group of volunteers, not supported by any national club, who are trying to revive the Rally and we simply do not have the resources to get involved in anything except that core purpose. It's hard enough to find people to do essential tasks (usually alongside busy working lives) without diverting time and energy to a dispute about helmets.

Next time we run a Sportive we'll certainly look more closely into the T&Cs before choosing which system to use and look for alternatives if need be, but for this year it's done and dusted, sorry.

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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby beardy » 4 Sep 2014, 9:11am

It probably comes with the territory, if you are doing Sportives you will always (?) find compulsory helmets.
Choosing to do a Sportive puts you in helmet territory, if you really dont approve of compulsory helmets then you dont deal with Sportives.

The event could have been run as an Audax but that just isnt appealing enough.
You know:- old guys, sandals, mudguards etc.

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pjclinch
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby pjclinch » 4 Sep 2014, 9:26am

I had an interesting conversation with a chap in BC's Education and Coaching department recently, actually about how can a coach at a BC bash be expected to risk assess the participation of an unhelmeted rider (there are exemptions for faith and disability) when BC provide no hard information on what can be expected of helmets.
During the course of the exchange I got the definite impression that it is concerns over insurance liability, though one does have to remember that BC are covering a very wide spectrum of riskiness. So while your sportive may well be a bit of a non-issue that wouldn't be the case with a world-cup downhill MTB event, or BMX Freecross. I don't like it, but I can at least understand the attractions of a one-size-fits-(almost)-all rule because otherwise you have to draw a line between "safe with helmet" and "not safe with helmet" and then you're in to industrial-grade worm canneries.

I do think BC need to get their act together with their recommendation for helmets for any riding, and their rules for them in non-competitive events, but with Boardman advising on policy they've already come a long way and it's to be hoped they'll keep going. And in the meantime there's not much to be gained by moaning to the rally organisers. I'd suggest a polite moan direct to BC. They state, "British Cycling recommends wearing a correctly fitted helmet for non-competitive riding, whilst recognising the right of each individual to choose whether or not to accept this recommendation and the limit to the protection helmets provide. British Cycling’s ultimate aim is to create a safer cycling environment remembering that the safest places in the world to cycle also have the lowest rates of helmet use", so it's worth asking why they stop recognising that right in a non-competitive event.

They do seem to hate talking about helmets, and I can't say I blame them, but they have made a rod for their own backs and the more people that point that out the better the chance of change.

As for the rally, something pretty good that runs is better than a perfect event that never happens, so I'd not bother them any further on this now that it's been raised and noted.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: York Rally fundraiser Sportive - 21st Sept 2014

Postby [XAP]Bob » 4 Sep 2014, 10:18am

beardy wrote:As for the rally, something pretty good that runs is better than a perfect event that never happens, so I'd not bother them any further on this now that it's been raised and noted.


It's been more than noted:
bikepete wrote:Next time we run a Sportive we'll certainly look more closely into the T&Cs before choosing which system to use and look for alternatives if need be, but for this year it's done and dusted, sorry.


And further discussion about *this* year seems a bit pointless, but I hope that this conversation is remembered *next* year.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.