why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

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bikerwaser
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why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby bikerwaser » 9 Jan 2015, 7:51pm

I know this has been posted before, so i'm sorry if you've seen it before, but these things get lost or not seen and i think this is too good :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY

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pjclinch
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby pjclinch » 11 Jan 2015, 4:45pm

I prefer to be rather more qualified. I'd say it's why nobody (including organisations, governments (local & national) etc. etc.) beyond individuals making a personal choice should care if they're worn or not.

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Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby [XAP]Bob » 11 Jan 2015, 5:58pm

It's clear that in the wide game helmets are a bad thing, but on a personal level they are approximately zero sum, and with the propaganda we've all been exposed to the decision to wear one isn't that hard to justify (very few will ask you to).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Penfolds11
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby Penfolds11 » 14 Jan 2015, 11:51am

"Applying logic to the culture of fear"... perhaps we should lobby for seat belts to be removed from cars and let natural selection take its course.

This talk didn't convince me on "Why We Shouldn't Bike with a Helmet" although it did reassure me on "Why We Shouldn't Allow Anyone To Dictate Whether We Choose To Cycle With A Helmet Or Not".

As a side note, does anyone else dislike the use of bike as a verb? I accept that this is a Danish talk, however I have seen it used in this country frequently. I don't car to work, or foot to the shops. I accept I'm probably being over-sensitive, but I just prefer to cycle as as the verb and a bike as the noun.

Tonyf33
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby Tonyf33 » 15 Jan 2015, 7:23am

do car seatbelts actually work that great anyway, have they through risk compensation made things worse? What % of total injuries in motorvehicles do they allegedly save? John Adams did a paper about the efficacy of seatbelts, an inteesting read. Also didn't the number of KSI in UK after seatbelts were introduced have very little significant change statistically?

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yakdiver
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby yakdiver » 15 Jan 2015, 8:34am

I'll stop wearing a helmet if motorists stop using their mobile phones.
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Audax67
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby Audax67 » 15 Jan 2015, 8:42am

Image Image Image
Have we got time for another cuppa?

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby [XAP]Bob » 15 Jan 2015, 10:09am

yakdiver wrote:I'll stop wearing a helmet if motorists stop using their mobile phones.

Not that that makes a great deal of difference. It's a bit like saying that I'll stop wearing a stab vest when people stop carrying assault rifles.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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pjclinch
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby pjclinch » 15 Jan 2015, 10:43am

Tonyf33 wrote:do car seatbelts actually work that great anyway, have they through risk compensation made things worse?


You might reasonably answer both of those questions "yes"...

One needs to be very careful in contextualising the question (your chances of coming out of A Notional Crash better off and the chances of you completing A Notional Journey without incident aren't the same thing), but on the broader stage one needs to be aware that you've effectively signed the death warrant on your argument as soon as you suggest seat belts aren't a pure win (as Adams pretty much admits himself in Risk, having presented pretty thorough arguments that they're not). Sad to say that in the realms of getting Normal People to listen to what you have to say about cycle helmets, telling them they're on shaky ground with the seatbelt assumptions is pretty much lighting up a big neon sign with "loony: can be safely disregarded" on it :(

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: why we shouldn't cycle with helmets

Postby [XAP]Bob » 15 Jan 2015, 11:13am

Seatbelts have pretty much undoubtedly made incidents much more survivable for those wearing them.

However, the overal RTA statistics don't show any effect from their compulsion, which implies that they make things worse for those *not* wearing them - pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists...

The likely mechanism is risk homoeostasis - behaviour is generally controlled by an internal acceptance of risk, and making people feel safer will therefore affect their behaviour, which affects other people. When this is questioned ask if they'd drive the same way without a seatbelt, or without a seatbelt or airbags, and with a spike in the steering wheel.

So the seatbelt is a clear win on an individual level, with very little cost (the installation cost is now unavoidable, and the incremental cost is negligible). However on a societal level it hasn't delivered the benefit that you would expect.


Without the whole of the above, any suggestion that seatbelts aren't universally good is generally ignored.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.