Helmets vs bikeability

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.

Helmets vs L3

Helmet: Yes/sometimes, L3 Yes
2
12%
Helmet: Yes/sometimes, L3 No
3
18%
Helmet: No, L3 Yes
2
12%
Helmet: No, L3 No
10
59%
 
Total votes: 17

Vorpal
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Vorpal » 25 Feb 2015, 12:50pm

I selected yes/sometimes and yes.

I consider L3 training to be far more important than a helmet, but my opinion might be biased. :mrgreen:

When I worked as a Bikeability instructor, I was required by my employer to wear a helmet, and to require students to wear helmets (with some exceptions). I did make some unsuccessful attempts to get my employer to relax on the helmet issue. IMO, the biggest risk in requiring helmets was that the kids who didn't have them were borrowing classmates' helmets and passing lice around <blech>
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Paulatic
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Paulatic » 25 Feb 2015, 1:46pm

Probably the easiest way to do L3 in Scotland at present is volunteer to become a CT (and have your LA pay the fee for the 4 day course by promising to help out with Bikeability at local schools!), but if you're in Norfolk and they're teaching mince that's not a useful option :(


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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby pwa » 25 Feb 2015, 1:54pm

My first exposure to safer cycling was with an after school Cycling Proficiency course, and the basic concepts worked with me. Of course you add to your knowledge and refine things over the years, but the early start really got me thinking about what I was doing. So well done and thanks to any of you helping kids get started.

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby kwackers » 25 Feb 2015, 2:34pm

pwa wrote:My first exposure to safer cycling was with an after school Cycling Proficiency course, and the basic concepts worked with me. Of course you add to your knowledge and refine things over the years, but the early start really got me thinking about what I was doing. So well done and thanks to any of you helping kids get started.

I did cycling proficiency and tbh it was a waste of space. This was back in the 60's so perhaps things have changed a bit.

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby pjclinch » 25 Feb 2015, 2:38pm

Current thinking is that CP would not be considered fit for purpose today. Bikeability isn't just a re-branding, although some people seem to assume that's the case.

Also worth noting that CP covered the same general areas as Bikeability 1 & 2 does, and not 3. There's an awful lot of places someone with a shiny L2 certificate ticked off for all outcomes would be woefully unprepared to deal with.

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby mjr » 25 Feb 2015, 2:41pm

I've no memory of whether I ever took cycling proficiency. I used to ride around the villages and nearby city with my friends and family, but it was in the 1980s where that was dying out, so it's quite possible that some of my school year group would have needed far more help to pass even a basic test... so if I did it, I don't think it can have been much better than that 60s version.
pjclinch wrote:(I can give you Essential Cycling Skills that covers L3 stuff, but is a "quickie" and certainly not a full L3 course).

Is it possible to take an assessment to decide what course is needed before committing to the given example of 4 days for L3? (Which means days of lost work on top of whatever course fees.)

Four days, maybe typical seven hour working days, so maybe 28 hours, plus you'd already have done two levels already... this sounds like more professional contact time than some motorists take learning to drive. Are we sure the training is proportionate and realistic?
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Vorpal » 25 Feb 2015, 2:56pm

When I have taught L3, it was to adults who either not had any training, or not had any recent training. The first thing I did was assessment of existing skills. The results were anything from just talking about terms and definitions to get a common understanding (e.g. secondary and primary position) to starting with pretty basic stuff. It was clear that one person had good skills but little understanding of the basic ideas behind Bikeability.

L3 is usually to gain confidence cycling in a much wider and more challenging set of circumstances. That mostly means time in the saddle, so it can't be done in a couple of hours.

However, the 4 day training session is to become a Bikeability Instructor. It just happens that is the best way to get L3 in Scotland.

In England, some local authorities offer L3. Also, some organisations that employ cyclists pay for their employees to take L3.
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby rfryer » 25 Feb 2015, 5:11pm

I answered yes/no.

I wear a helmet because it keeps loved ones happy, and I don't believe it significantly increases the risk to me. I haven't done L3 because I live in Scotland. I have read cyclecraft, and looked into taking the instructor course, but the website was confusing and unclear, so I didn't follow it up.

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby pjclinch » 25 Feb 2015, 7:32pm

rfryer wrote:I haven't done L3 because I live in Scotland. I have read cyclecraft, and looked into taking the instructor course, but the website was confusing and unclear, so I didn't follow it up.


http://www.cyclingscotland.org/news/new-cycle-trainer-course-dates-released

mjr wrote:Is it possible to take an assessment to decide what course is needed before committing to the given example of 4 days for L3? (Which means days of lost work on top of whatever course fees.)


As Vorpal noted, that's the Cycle Trainer course, and includes all sorts of stuff you have no need of to ride a bike (e.g., how to risk assess training locations, taking beginners through the rudiments of balance, etc.) but which might be interesting anyway, especially if you do end up teaching. Level 3 formally from start to finish is about 8 hours of lessons, but unless you've a mania for box-ticking and collecting stickers and certificates most experienced riders wouldn't need to do the whole lot.

Perhaps the easiest thing to do is download the course resources from https://bikeability.dft.gov.uk/delivering-bikeability/bikeability-course-guides/ and see how you're doing. A good instructor should take you beyond the resources on the page, but that will show you the sort of place you are and what's covered.

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby beardy » 25 Feb 2015, 10:10pm

Am I correct in saying that after four days of training you could be be qualified to teach an L3 course?

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Paulatic » 25 Feb 2015, 10:24pm

Yes
There were 3 local authority employees qualified with me who didn't normally ride bikes. To be fair though their role would be to help facilitate training rather as deliver it.
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby pjclinch » 26 Feb 2015, 8:14am

Scottish setup is you can teach L1-3 if you're a Cycle Trainer (4 day course), and you can also risk assess your own locations, create supporting material etc. A 1 day course will make you a CT Assistant who can teach 1 & 2, but you have to use areas a CT has risk assessed and no L3 material is covered. An extra 1 day for a CT will make you a CT+, and that lets you create CTAs.

The Scottish system is, AFAICT, more volunteer driven. There are companies contracted by LAs getting some business, but most delivery is via volunteers. That's not really fair on people who could/should be earning a living from it, but that's the way it is on the ground because nobody wants to spend money (nothing new there...).

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Si
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Si » 26 Feb 2015, 8:41am

Our L3 adult courses normally last up to three hours, based on a ratio of one to one. Part of that three hours includes the static stuff, initial assessment and paperwork.

We also do journey accompaniment - not meant to be an actual L3 training session, rather we work with the client to plan routes between, say, their home and work, ride them and talk to them about the best way to negotiate the various hazards they might meet. But the emphasis is on route planning.

For some trainers the L3 is based around a journey accompaniment ride, however most of our L3s tend to be based on the city centre where we know we can find a good range of hazards and plenty of traffic to play in.

As for cycle proficiency.....I remember when they did it at my primary school: I remember riding past the playground, looking at them and wondering why they all wanted to spend the afternoon riding in circles when they could come out with me on a relaxed 15mile ride into the countryside. :lol:

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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby Paulatic » 26 Feb 2015, 8:46am

I should have added that one of the LA workers, on day one, was quite vocal about cyclists holding him up on the A75. When he left on day 4 he fully understood why those cyclist were in his road. If nothing else was learnt im sure he went away a more knowledgable and considerate driver
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Re: Helmets vs bikeability

Postby mjr » 26 Feb 2015, 9:18am

How much and where do people book, Si? It sounds like it may be worth people travelling from less well served areas to it.
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