How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

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Manc33
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Manc33 » 19 Aug 2015, 8:01pm

Society is being manipulated. Go back 30 years and no one wore a helmet cycling. Are there less casualties now in the real world because of helmets being worn? Probably not - but society got manipulated slightly more and that's all that matters. Who knows, maybe in 50 years it might be "illegal" to ride a bicycle without paying tax, MOT and insurance, with a full face helmet thrown in for good measure.

What OP asks isn't about "caving in to pressure" because in the real world, that pressure isn't even there. It is only there in the minds of people that can't look back to 30 years ago to see how absurd it is.

If someone doesn't want to wear a helmet, let them not wear one. How it ever became normal for a group of people to dictate to another group of people what they do with their own body is absolutely incredible, compared to the personal privacy and rights people used to have.

There was a time someone would just chop your head off right there and then for suggesting they do as you say. "Making" people wear helmets, or a seatbelt, or anything involving telling that person what to do with their own body is just flat out wrong, but heh, if people fall for it why not, let's turn society into a spineless mass of robot clones that believe its cool to be told what to do all the time, yearning for more rules to follow. Thing is these clone-robot types do have a mind of their own, buried away somewhere.
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Tonyf33 » 19 Aug 2015, 10:38pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Helmet debate again. Read all the other ones for that. It's where I read about helmet use for children having evidence of being of benefit due to some reason I can't recall. I'm really not going to waste my arguing with you over this. I read some research from a link on one of the many debates that children's developing brain suffers damage more than adult brains from lower impact injuries, causes more damage in the types of impacts helmets are good for. Sorry if I can't quote enough academic papers for you but I'm happy to accept what I did read hence my feeling the need to put a helmet on my child.

Sorry if my choice based on the research / expert advice I have read offends you and you feel the need to educate me to your view. Waste your time if you want I'll just stop reading this thread. Perhaps you could take it to an existing helmet debate and leave this thread out?


It sounds like it is you yourself whom is putting pressure on your own family/children to conform to something you don't practise otherwise, no wonder your child is confused!
all this on the back of one single report that you cant remember the details of, that doesn't make logical sense tbh, not to mention millions of kids who have banged their heads through their childhood in many other situations other than cycling that seemingly carry on through life without any problem at all with development.

It would appear common sense to not force a child to wear protection for their head on the basis of detrimental development if you aren't protecting them with a helmet in ALL situations were they may suffer a head injury ...getting out of bed, walking down the stairs, getting out the bath/shower, walking to the shops/school, being driven in the car, playing in the park, childrens parties etc, otherwise your assessment of risk just appears squinted toward cycling right?

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pjclinch
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby pjclinch » 20 Aug 2015, 3:43pm

Wot Tony Sez, really.

For a good child-centric report from an acknowledged expert on childhood risk without an axe to grind, commissioned by a children's general welfare charity, I'd have a look at Tim Gill's Cycling and Children and Young People, see http://www.ncb.org.uk/media/443203/cyclingreport_2005.pdf. The conclusion is there isn't a sound case to promote or mandate helmets.

Though that was done a decade ago now, more and more organisations are moving towards it. Sustrans, for example, have now reworded their helmet policy from particularly recommending their use for children to, "We support the individual’s freedom of choice whether to wear a cycle helmet or not, and for parents to make that choice for their children. Helmet wearing isn't a legal requirement in the UK, and the evidence is inconclusive as to whether it makes cycling safer."

While the worries about developing brains being more susceptible to damage are understandable, you need to bear in mind that cycling isn't particularly productive of head injuries. Playground games like chase and football are far more likely to involve children's heads hitting hard things than most cycling. Perhaps bonkers BMX and downhill MTB warrant more protection, but typical child cycle use isn't an issue.

Check out for an example of multiple learning-to-ride crashes in NL where this sort of thing is entirely typical. The Dutch aren't renowned for their children being far more brain damaged than ours, and the majority ride without helmets and the much-vaunted infrastructure does not protect from the sort of spill helmets are designed for.

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Steady rider
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Steady rider » 21 Aug 2015, 8:10am

Perhaps children this young would benefit from riding a 3 wheeler first, up to age 3-4, lower risk of falling I expect. Later moving to a 2 wheeler, they would then have the feeling for balance and some experience.

If one parent thinks their child should wear one and another parent thinks the opposite, then a child may see a conflict. Another potential small problem caused by helmets.

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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Vorpal » 21 Aug 2015, 8:44am

Neither of my children really took to the tricycle, but both took to the balance bike.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with children that young learning to ride a pedal bike. The child in the video may not be as well coordinated as an older child but she(?) got it quickly enough. I've seen 8 year old children have more difficulty with it than the child int he in video.

As for parents disagreeing... that happens about plenty of things. Part of parenting is working stuff like that out. I don't think helmets are substantially different.
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pjclinch
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby pjclinch » 21 Aug 2015, 10:47am

Steady rider wrote:Perhaps children this young would benefit from riding a 3 wheeler first, up to age 3-4, lower risk of falling I expect. Later moving to a 2 wheeler, they would then have the feeling for balance and some experience.


First up, the problem with trikes is the same as stabilised bikes, and that's you don't have a feeling for balance and steering because they work very differently to a two-wheeler (it can be quite amusing putting an accomplished bicyclist on a trike for the first time since they were knee-high... don't ask me how I know this). What you learn is how to pedal, which is actually the easy bit and why most instruction these days goes down the balance bike route.

Second, I think a trick here is comparing and contrasting to learning to walk/run. Kids typically start trying to walk as soon as they can, and they fall over a lot. Once they're generally capable toddlers they then start to try running as soon as they can, and they fall over quite a lot.. That's not a reason to decide they should stick to crawling and then walking until their motor skills have improved to the point where their walking or running attempts will proceed more smoothly, so why the sudden extra caution just because we're on a bike?

As often, it's instructive to look at what happens when we do treat cycling and walking the same, and for one angle on this check out the award-winning infant safety helmet the Thudguard. We know these things aren't necessary because the vast majority of kids have managed perfectly well without them for millennia, yet check out the marketing blurb at http://www.thudguard.com/ and see how it plays all the same cards that are given as reasons why it's "best" for children to wear helmets on bikes. Clearly Thudguards are selling, but I've never seen one in the wild and children are somehow managing to emerge from childhood without significant brain injury in sufficient numbers not to warrant mass public outrage that some parents are so irresponsible as not to use such things.

While there is much argument about how effective a cycle helmet really is, the real elephant in the room is the other things that are clearly at least as risky as cycling that are undertaken without any particular concern without extra safety equipment.

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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Steady rider » 21 Aug 2015, 8:42pm

http://www.twowheelingtots.com/beyond-t ... -the-hype/

The whole issue of kids and balance and how to minimize falls may be worth some research. Speed is an obvious issue.
Technically a speed limiter for wheel size may be feasible but costs would probably make it unattractive for some people.

On the 'pressure to conform' - with more people wearing helmets, those that do not stand out from the crowd - individuals, and some people trend towards and like being individuals in many ways.

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mjr
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby mjr » 21 Aug 2015, 9:29pm

Steady rider wrote:On the 'pressure to conform' - with more people wearing helmets, those that do not stand out from the crowd - individuals, and some people trend towards and like being individuals in many ways.

The last figure I saw said only a third wear crash helmets. Has that changed massively? If not, why isn't it the minority that stands out?
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Cunobelin
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Aug 2015, 8:37am

First they made cyclists wear helmets and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they made cyclist wear HiViz and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it a good idea

Then they made cyclist have daytime running lights and I did not speak out—
Because Despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they Banned cycling as unsafe and there were no cyclists left to speak for me.

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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby bikepacker » 22 Aug 2015, 11:12am

Cunobelin wrote:First they made cyclists wear helmets and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they made cyclist wear HiViz and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it a good idea

Then they made cyclist have daytime running lights and I did not speak out—
Because Despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they Banned cycling as unsafe and there were no cyclists left to speak for me.


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Cunobelin
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Aug 2015, 11:34am

hufty wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:...there is evidence the use of a helmet in a developing child can have positive effects in the case of an accident.

(1) Can we have a citation please, otherwise it sounds like a "common sense innit" statement
(2) Is the risk of your child having a head injury significantly less when he or she isn't in the trailer


This is where theThudguard comes in as it prevents head injuries in developing children

The site offers all the same evidence as is used to support cycle helmets

Bicycler
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Bicycler » 22 Aug 2015, 12:18pm

First they made child cyclists wear helmets and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Cunobelin wrote:Then they made cyclists wear helmets and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they made cyclist wear HiViz and I did not speak out—
Because despite the evidence some thought it a good idea

Then they made cyclist have daytime running lights and I did not speak out—
Because Despite the evidence some thought it was a good idea

Then they Banned cycling as unsafe and there were no cyclists left to speak for me.

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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby broadway » 22 Aug 2015, 5:14pm

pjclinch wrote:Check out
for an example of multiple learning-to-ride crashes in NL where this sort of thing is entirely typical. The Dutch aren't renowned for their children being far more brain damaged than ours, and the majority ride without helmets and the much-vaunted infrastructure does not protect from the sort of spill helmets are designed for.


And it would be more sensible to wear gloves while learning for that age group.

And in answer to the OP my wife sometimes tells me I should wear a helmet, I tell her to review the research papers and argue her case. She has not come back so maybe she is not as bothered as she makes out.

broadway
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby broadway » 22 Aug 2015, 5:17pm

Tangled Metal wrote:What pressure? I have never realized there has been pressure to wear a helmet but then I am thick skinned, so my partner tells me.

I am getting a helmet for rides with the family. The reason is there is evidence the use of a helmet in a developing child can have positive effects in the case of an accident. I think that I read somewhere helmets are of benefit to children purely because of the fact they are still developing. Since both me and my partner (the mother) stopped wearing helmets a few years back he is adamant that he will not. Being a very clever kid he has been able to undo most types of clasps, buckles and strapping systems available from about the age of 9 months. That is down to his evident interest in working out how things work (he's 2 1/2 years and can change the time of the oven clock and a lot of other things too a lot easier than his mother can). So our only hope is to make him believe it is normal to wear helmets when out cycling. This means I do now feel a pressure for the first time ever to wear a helmet, but only to convince our child not to rip his off the first time our backs are turned.

PS the only real pressure is the feeling we are bad parents for letting our son ride in a trailer and child seat without a helmet for so long. We should have tried harder to get him to wear it when younger. In an ideal world we could get him to wear his without us wearing ours (well I no longer have any helmets that haven't been trashed by being thrown around the back of various cupboards during tidy ups and spring cleans).


What do you think of children walking and running then, tripping could also result in a head injury to a developing child.

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Vantage
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Re: How long should the pressure to conform be resisted?

Postby Vantage » 21 Sep 2015, 9:50am

Until this weekend, I wondered what all this "pressure to wear a helmet" malarkey was about. I'd certainly never experienced it.
Saturday morning, Erin and I went for a ride to the park. As we rode around and her winning a few mini races (amazingly I couldn't shift out of the 28t granny ring and 34t sprocket, weird I know) she noticed a tent setup and kids on bikes in the distance so we wandered over for looky.
A well known Bolton bike club was having a kiddies cyclo cross event and we stayed to watch for a while.
A gentleman strolled across and started explaining who they were, what they did etc and after congratulating her on losing the anti stabilising wheels, asked Erin if she fancied a go at racing. Erin went all shy and just smiled.
Then it happened. He explained that the club had rules about wearing helmets during their races and then said to Erin, "Where's yours then?"
Her face dropped as if she had done something wrong. Grrrrrr.
I resisted the urge to suggest where he shove his helmet and just replied there was alot of that helmet malarkey around.
A bit more chit chat and we went our separate ways.
I rode my entire childhood without helmet and started wearing only when I took up mountain bike racing. In the last few months I've basically stopped wearing one through choice. Up to a certain point I believe they do offer some protection but I do wonder how much of a difference it would make in an accident.
I've explained my beliefs to my kids and my reasons for those beliefs. I've made it clear that they are free to choose whether they wear a lid or not and I've made it clear to their mum that I'd rather she didn't influence those decisions.
The girls choose to have the wind in their hair.
Until someone offers evidence that a helmet will 100% save my bacon in an incident or contribute to saving my bacon, my lid and probably the girls will continue to collect dust.

Fwiw, during my childhood I fell down the stairs 6 times, fell off a 6 foot wall, bounced off a wire fence after doing a flying karate kick on it (Don't ask) and after attempting to throw a big boulder over another wire fence which then bounced off and cracked me on the head. All resulted in red gooey stuff leaking out.
Yet countless bike crashes over 35+ years have not resulted in a leaky head.
Maybe I should have worn a lid for the karate kid moment :mrgreen:
Bill


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