Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 10738
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2018, 10:17am

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:Is it, though? If there's one group loudly calling for "no helmet no ride" - probably using emotional blackmail - and a less vociferous less well-backed-by-media group calling for "wear what you like" based on evidence, then the faux-balanced view becomes "helmets recommended" which - if you sincerely believe that helmets have no effect because their impact protection is negated by increasing crash rates - doesn't help our fellow cyclists, especially those the helmet users crash into. So, to move the pendulum back to neutral, shouldn't we call for racing helmets to be banned from non-races?

And that in itself acts as a ban on people like myself who wear a lid but don't care whether others do or not. Where does that get us? Apartheid based on headwear. And the lidless become a fringe group, even more so than now.

Ah, that's only if such helmet bans actually happen and I don't know of any ride yet to ban them. Do you? Even "vintage" rides I've done have allowed modern helmets as well as vintage hairnet and pith ones.

There's a difference in most negotiations between what you start out asking for and what you'd accept.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

brynpoeth
Posts: 7345
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Oct 2018, 4:11pm

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:Is it, though? If there's one group loudly calling for "no helmet no ride" - probably using emotional blackmail - and a less vociferous less well-backed-by-media group calling for "wear what you like" based on evidence, then the faux-balanced view becomes "helmets recommended" which - if you sincerely believe that helmets have no effect because their impact protection is negated by increasing crash rates - doesn't help our fellow cyclists, especially those the helmet users crash into. So, to move the pendulum back to neutral, shouldn't we call for racing helmets to be banned from non-races?

And that in itself acts as a ban on people like myself who wear a lid but don't care whether others do or not. Where does that get us? Apartheid based on headwear. And the lidless become a fringe group, even more so than now.

Ah, that's only if such helmet bans actually happen and I don't know of any ride yet to ban them. Do you? Even "vintage" rides I've done have allowed modern helmets as well as vintage hairnet and pith ones.

There's a difference in most negotiations between what you start out asking for and what you'd accept.

A good compromise is achieved when both/all parties are dissatisfied
Cycling - of course, but it is far better on a Gillott..alternative facts welcome

Wanlock Dod
Posts: 267
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 8 Oct 2018, 9:20am

Bans and discrimination are an integral part of organised bike rides these days. My wife considered doing a Breeze ride yesterday, that's helmet wearing women only, so obviously rather discriminatory, but it's OK because any men that fancied riding get a chance to understand how the average organised ride really is for many women. A "no helmets allowed" ride would enable committed helmet wearers to experience the same kind of exclusion that is normal for committed non-helmet wearers where organised rides are concerned. As an opportunity to promote awareness of views about cycling safety and the relevance of helmets it might be a good thing.

Given that lots of organised cycling events include some kind of discriminatory element what is wrong with a helmet ban for some rides?

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 3760
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby RickH » 8 Oct 2018, 10:52am

Wanlock Dod wrote: My wife considered doing a Breeze ride yesterday, that's helmet wearing women only..

I don't think Breeze has different rules regarding helmets to the rest of the Let's Ride programme.
Let's Ride website wrote:Helmets

In compliance with British Cycling’s rules and regulations, helmets are compulsory for under-18s, and recommended but not compulsory for adults, taking part in our rides.(link)

If ride leaders are insisting on helmets for adults then they are acting outside their remit & should be reported to British Cycling.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 716
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Cugel » 8 Oct 2018, 11:19am

Wanlock Dod wrote:Bans and discrimination are an integral part of organised bike rides these days. My wife considered doing a Breeze ride yesterday, that's helmet wearing women only, so obviously rather discriminatory, but it's OK because any men that fancied riding get a chance to understand how the average organised ride really is for many women. A "no helmets allowed" ride would enable committed helmet wearers to experience the same kind of exclusion that is normal for committed non-helmet wearers where organised rides are concerned. As an opportunity to promote awareness of views about cycling safety and the relevance of helmets it might be a good thing.

Given that lots of organised cycling events include some kind of discriminatory element what is wrong with a helmet ban for some rides?


An interesting point.

There are several versions of The Eroica these days that have quite draconian rules about what you can ride and, sometimes, what you can wear. And what you can't. A true reproduction of a 1920s - 1980s ride would not see a helmet, unless someone chose to wear a "hairnet" of the period - a "safety" hat recognised at the time as being no more efficacious to safety than the modern polystyrene version has turned out to be.

But such gestures as a helmet-banning event may be empty. They may be worse, inducing an even more intransigent pout in favour of making the plastic banana hat compulsory. My own feeling is that helmets are already dying out a bit. All it'll take for them to become a daft bit of old-fashioned nonsense will be, ironically, a change in fashion.

But what piece of silliness will the former helmet purveyors then persuade us to buy, to replace the dried-up profit stream from the sale of millions of landfill-filling, sea-choking clumps of useless plastic?

Cugel

fastpedaller
Posts: 1577
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby fastpedaller » 8 Oct 2018, 11:56am

Cugel wrote:But what piece of silliness will the former helmet purveyors then persuade us to buy, to replace the dried-up profit stream from the sale of millions of landfill-filling, sea-choking clumps of useless plastic?

Cugel

Plastic bikes? :oops: Oh I see that's already being done!

Wanlock Dod
Posts: 267
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 8 Oct 2018, 1:43pm

The purpose of a "no helmets allowed" ride would not be to discriminate mindlessly, that is simply an effect of targeting a ride at any particular group, rather to raise awareness that there is an alternative to wearing a helmet. No helmets mean that those who choose to wear a helmet might wonder why, most people I know believe that it can't do any harm, and perhaps ask why they would need to leave their helmet behind to join a ride. The only purpose would be to raise awareness of an alternative to helmet wearing.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 716
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Cugel » 8 Oct 2018, 1:46pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Cugel wrote:But what piece of silliness will the former helmet purveyors then persuade us to buy, to replace the dried-up profit stream from the sale of millions of landfill-filling, sea-choking clumps of useless plastic?

Cugel

Plastic bikes? :oops: Oh I see that's already being done!


My plastic bikes, though, do seem to have utility. I've done tens of thousands of miles on mine so far, with nivver a glitch. I often feel they go better than the steel or aluminium ones. In all events, they do function at a level commensurate with the claims of even the adverts. (Well, perhaps they don't induce total euphoria or attract large collections of admiring ladies offering subliminal suggestions via eye-bat and eyelash flutter).

But I digress.

For all those owning & wearing a plastic hat for the same number of miles, how many times has it been of any utility, I wonder? I quizzed the members of the club a few weeks ago. No one could claim a head bang of any sort whilst be-hatted, apart from one bloke who face-planted (big twig under mudguard) and had a few dozen face stitches as a result but didn't damage his plastic hat at all. One or two claimed they had a friend who knew a bloke who had a friend who's wife might have banged her head once ..... Ha!

But what to do with a plastic frame if it breaks? Some can be mended but many must go to landfill. Can they be recycled, as a beyond-repair steel or aluminium frame can? I doubt it somehow.

Cugel

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 8130
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Cunobelin » 8 Oct 2018, 4:02pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:Bans and discrimination are an integral part of organised bike rides these days. My wife considered doing a Breeze ride yesterday, that's helmet wearing women only, so obviously rather discriminatory, but it's OK because any men that fancied riding get a chance to understand how the average organised ride really is for many women. A "no helmets allowed" ride would enable committed helmet wearers to experience the same kind of exclusion that is normal for committed non-helmet wearers where organised rides are concerned. As an opportunity to promote awareness of views about cycling safety and the relevance of helmets it might be a good thing.

Given that lots of organised cycling events include some kind of discriminatory element what is wrong with a helmet ban for some rides?


Ironically the least well informed and most ignorant are the organisers.

After several years of pointing out that UK Cycling Event's requirements excluded EN1078 helmets (the European standard) by insisting on up to date Smell and the long obsolete ANSI ......the EN1078 helmets do not comply with the tougher Snell Standards, and ANSI doesn't actually exist..... the majority of helmets on their ride were in fact banned by their own rules. They cannot even claim it is an insurance requirement as thousands of participants wearing an EN1078 hemet were not covered by the event's insurance for not wearing a helmet meeting the organiser's criteria.!

Now they have taken this on board and added EN 1078 to the list:


5. You must wear a safety-approved cycling helmet complying with latest EN1078, ANSI Z90/4 or SNELL standards during your participation in the event. Any rider not wearing a helmet will not be covered by the event insurance and will be disqualified from the event and could be liable for damages if involved in an accident on that basis. You must accept this as a condition of entry.



However the ignorance still continues as the ANSI z90/4 has't existed for many years. The committee last met in over 20 years, and was superseded by ATM some 15 years ago by the ASTM standard

The only helmets you are likely to get that have met this standard is one of these :

Image

One has to wonder who is giving advice to these organisers if they are still requiring helmet standards that are 20 years out of date!
Last edited by Cunobelin on 8 Oct 2018, 4:08pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nigel
Posts: 129
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Nigel » 8 Oct 2018, 4:05pm

RickH wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote: My wife considered doing a Breeze ride yesterday, that's helmet wearing women only..

I don't think Breeze has different rules regarding helmets to the rest of the Let's Ride programme.
Let's Ride website wrote:Helmets

In compliance with British Cycling’s rules and regulations, helmets are compulsory for under-18s, and recommended but not compulsory for adults, taking part in our rides.(link)

If ride leaders are insisting on helmets for adults then they are acting outside their remit & should be reported to British Cycling.


Tis normal for Breeze organisers to require others to wear a helmet. These three rides (in the same small area) have varying levels from "must wear" to "always recommend" rules. The latter may be argued as a re-stating of BC policy, but it is, in effect, a rule for participants if said in the short form by the organiser. I'm sure these three are not alone.

https://www.letsride.co.uk/rides/birgha ... rway-round
https://www.letsride.co.uk/rides/sunday ... den-centre
https://www.letsride.co.uk/rides/saturd ... a-langshaw

pwa
Posts: 7986
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby pwa » 8 Oct 2018, 4:15pm

Going a bit off topic, are there any cycle helmet makers out there working on well ventilated lightweight helmets that offer improved protection compared to bog standard designs?

Steady rider
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Steady rider » 8 Oct 2018, 5:11pm

I expect most manufacturers may say yes but cost could be an issue.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 1031
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 8 Oct 2018, 5:23pm

For all those owning & wearing a plastic hat for the same number of miles, how many times has it been of any utility, I wonder?


I normally, but not always wear a plastic hat.

They have seen action twice, both times when I was hit head on by a car, both times I suffered concussion.

Once the lid cracked, once it didn't.

I make no claims as to their effectiveness in mitigating my injuries.

I continue to wear a lid most of the time, particularly when commuting. They make a very useful high level light holder if nothing else. On hot sunny days I generally give it a miss, and I find I get occasionally yelled at by other cyclists for not wearing. Some people need to chill out.

Actually on topic, given that the mag had folk on the front cover wearing pork pie hats last issue, I'm not sure why anyone is still complaining of pro helmet bias.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 1694
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Oct 2018, 6:23pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:The purpose of a "no helmets allowed" ride would not be to discriminate mindlessly, that is simply an effect of targeting a ride at any particular group, rather to raise awareness that there is an alternative to wearing a helmet. No helmets mean that those who choose to wear a helmet might wonder why, most people I know believe that it can't do any harm, and perhaps ask why they would need to leave their helmet behind to join a ride. The only purpose would be to raise awareness of an alternative to helmet wearing.

A no helmet ride would hopefully mean the overtly aggressive crash inducing wannabe racers from taking part, it's this group more than any that cause the biggest amount of grief on organised rides from all the various reports/incidents that are talked about. That and of course the plethora of 'helmet saved my life' stories which outnumber the number of actual cycling deaths in years gone by a massive factor, it's a wonder there are any cyclists left alive from BITD!
Pretty much every professional cyclist should have died, every amateur enthusiast be dead and buried if they ever took part in racing, TT, commuting to work, riding on tour, lesiure rides, riding to the shops/friends etc, how did they/we ever survive ...oh wait :roll:

Phil Fouracre
Posts: 736
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 12:16pm
Location: Deepest Somerset

Re: Cycle mag, CTC finally caved in re helmets & sold us out?

Postby Phil Fouracre » 8 Oct 2018, 8:24pm

Sad about the Breeze ride! I did a ride leader course a few years ago, where I was told that 'for insurance purposes' I had to ride with a helmet, during the training. When I qualified I was told that if I led a ride I would still have to wear a helmet to 'set a good example'. We 'agreed to differ' and I never led a ride. What a completely stupid waste of time and energy :-(
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity