What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

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pjclinch
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by pjclinch »

hufty wrote:I would take sleeping bag ratings with a large pinch of salt. If you've never had a sleeping bag before it might be an idea to borrow one for a night during some cold weather to calibrate yourself against the stated comfort rating.


One issue with this is whether a standardised test is used to rate the bag, or if it's just something someone in marketing trying to make it sound good, and these days there is indeed a standardised test so at least for reputable concerns if Brand X say it'll do -5 Comfort then it should be pretty much as warm as Brand Y's -5 Comfort offering.

However, while that -5 will work for a lot of people a lot of the time there are people that can get a sound night's sleep well below zero in a summer bag and people who need a serious expedition bag to get any sleep on a pleasant summer evening (I used to have a -25 rated bag for winter camping in Scotland and it was just too hot, I eventually sold it to a friend who liked to borrow it in summer). As hufty suggests, a bit of personal calibration is in order.
yostumpy wrote:Hmm, what do folks wear in bed then? At home, I always sleep naked, even in v cold weather in a chilly bedroom. I find that my body heat warms the air in the bed v quickly, but if I wear a t shirt etc, I find I stay cold, as every time I move I get chilled by the cold air in the bed, as my body is not warming it up, but warming my t shirt, if that makes sense. Is this the same with bags?


Wear whatever you want. Just as with normal beds different folk like different things. One thing worth remembering for the naked approach is it makes the bag dirtier and down bags are a pain in the backside to clean. For this reason a light liner may be worth using, these are typically silk for a mix of comfort and lightness. The thinnest ones add very little insulation value but there are thicker ones if you want to uprate the bag a little. Some sort of PJs help keep the bag clean too, but bulk more and you'd need socks and gloves to do a proper job.

Warin61 wrote:Bag temperatures are given with you wearing something.
Thermals do a good job inside the bag - thin, light yet warm. They add much more warmth than their weight. Warm socks help too, but they tend to weight more than their warmth.


Bag temperatures are given from the standard test, I don't know that there's any assumption of what you wear, but back up to the top paragraph in any case. I think it's quite possibly the case that if you want to add warmth as effectively as possible by weight you buy a greater weight of the primary insulation, but of course not many people have a large range of bags so they can take the optimum model. Once you're camping the bag you've got is the bag you've got, and if you start shivering then thermals are indeed a great way to stay a bit warmer... followed by anything else you might have handy!

mnichols wrote:Lots of comments about getting the sleeping mat right, but any recommendations?

I’m doing a supported tour next year so not bothered about size or weight....hope I’m not hijacking the thread.....seems on topic


In the back of the support campervan! But if you're camping and it's warm and you're not planning on doing much camping again then a basic airbed is actually very good: cheap and comfy and pretty robust. Fancier ones add insulation but this is typically a moot point in summer. For longer term light camping I personally rate the NeoAir as a great mix of light, insulating, low bulk and comfortable. The Exped mats with extra filling if you need warmer, and something like a Thermarest self-inflating if you want someything a bit cheaper but still nice.

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Chat Noir
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by Chat Noir »

In reply to questions about mats, Thermarest NeoAir is what I use, 478 g and packs down to about 20 x 10 cm (folds in 3 lengthways, then rolls up). The lightest and most compact I've used, and we have a long back catalogue of mats in the house. Sleeping on your side gets harder over the years and this mat is sufficient to make side sleeping ok. Certainly thick enough when camping in snow and deals effortlessly with stony ground. My partner uses her mat whenever she goes away camping and is very positive about it: when we're together they fit well in our small 2-person tent. It can be slightly noisy moving around, a rustling sound, not problem for me but I've heard others unhappy with this. It comes with some form of pump utilising it's stuff sack. I've never used this, content to keep my lungs working, even when high on the side of a mountain.

It's not cheap, but everything about this makes it excellent for lightweight camping. Used it the other week walking the Affric Kintail way in Scotland. My son uses something else, designed to be super lightweight, etc. He was casting covetous glances at my mat after a poor night's sleep when I'd been fine, and his covetous glances often turn into 'can I borrow your ..?'

Good luck.
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hamster
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by hamster »

With any bag it's Light / Warm / Cheap - pick two.

The standardised tests assume a certain light level of clothing and you can boost things by wearing extra - I have Helly Hansen fleece baselayers and wool socks for colder nights to stay warm with a light bag. By then I also need a down jacket when camping, so that goes on over the top of the bag or I zip it up and stuff my legs into it. The amound of mesh in the tent inner also makes a big difference to the temperature - I block up the mesh end of my Terra Nova Voyager to stop my feet getting cold.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

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Warin61
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by Warin61 »

pjclinch wrote:issue with this is whether a standardised test is used to rate the bag, or if it's just something someone in marketing trying to make it sound good, and these days there is indeed a standardised test so at least for reputable concerns if Brand X say it'll do -5 Comfort then it should be pretty much as warm as Brand Y's -5 Comfort offering.


Bag temperatures are given from the standard test, I don't know that there's any assumption of what you wear, but back up to the top paragraph in any case.


The standardised test is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537. That states, amongst other things, "using a sleeping pad, tent and is wearing one base layer of thermal underwear." There are lots of variables - the pad may have more or less insulation, the tent may have more or less air flow etc. Hopefully these details are taken care of in the actual document. But EN 13537 is better than the marketing department making claims.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by foxyrider »

yostumpy wrote:Hmm, what do folks wear in bed then? At home, I always sleep naked, even in v cold weather in a chilly bedroom. I find that my body heat warms the air in the bed v quickly, but if I wear a t shirt etc, I find I stay cold, as every time I move I get chilled by the cold air in the bed, as my body is not warming it up, but warming my t shirt, if that makes sense. Is this the same with bags?


I usually do naked when camping but always with a silk bag liner (currently a cheap Decathlon mummy). If it gets colder I might wear underkeks and possibly a thin T all the way up to a fleece. My bag is a Sea2Summit Spark SP1, -5 rated down (weighs @400g and compresses to @2l) with a Neoair Xlite 3/4 mat (238g and size of a big can of beer!).

I have a choice of two tents, both 2 man as I get a little claustrophobic and the extra space allows me to keep everything inside and spread out. Not sure on current pricing, Vaude Taurus UL is @2kg and end door, the Power Lizard Super UL is @ 1kg side door. I'm tending to use the latter mostly of late as it's packed size and pole size mean it fits in a 40l bag with my bedding with spare space so nothing strapped outside.

In my experience key things with tent choice aren't weight or recommendations but ease of election and entry/exit. If you can crawl about in the tent of choice before you buy it, do, experiment with sleep position/direction too. In my end door I actually sleep head in, feet at the door as there is plenty of height even 2m in, might not work on other tents of similar design.

Don't mistake high price for best design, some of the tents by 'top' brands I wouldn't give house room. A useful place to look for quality gear is Ultralight Outdoor Gear - real life reviews of the kit with about as much info as anyone might need.

Just wait until you start looking at cooking gear!
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
As said crawling into a tent for first time tells you in seconds if it right for you.
Most of my camping is stealth last thing as possible pitching in dark, so small foot print and I don't need to cook or store bike inside.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by Eton Rifle »

yostumpy wrote:Hmm, what do folks wear in bed then? At home, I always sleep naked, even in v cold weather in a chilly bedroom. I find that my body heat warms the air in the bed v quickly, but if I wear a t shirt etc, I find I stay cold, as every time I move I get chilled by the cold air in the bed, as my body is not warming it up, but warming my t shirt, if that makes sense. Is this the same with bags?


Some folk use a liner (usually silk) but I can't get on with them. I always end up getting twisted up in them and wake up feeling like I'm in a straitjacket. My solution is a silk baselayer - top and longjohns weigh a little more than a liner but are far more versatile. You can sit up and get a brew on without getting your top half cold and of course they double as a spare baselayer. Mine are made by Patras and pack down to nothing. I also wear coolmax liner socks but don't bother with gloves - your hands have a very small surface area compared to the rest of your body, so sweat and body oil getting on the inside of the bag from your paws is minimal. The other advantage of a silk baselayer is that it adds quite a bit of warmth if you're sitting outside with a drink and a book on a cool evening.
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pjclinch
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by pjclinch »

foxyrider wrote:Don't mistake high price for best design, some of the tents by 'top' brands I wouldn't give house room.


The trick is often that "best" is contextual. Take, for example, my Hilleberg Tarra. Current RRP is about a grand, it's a serious bit of kit. I bought it for bunker-class protection I could pitch on a shingle beach having abandoned a sea-kayak trip to get out of a storm, and it's as good as anything out there for that. But it wouldn't be great for cycle touring: too bulky, too heavy, and all that weight goes on a level of strength I don't need for cycling.

But even things for your notional activity can split opinion. Another popular tent for the bunker job is the Quasar, which has been a best seller for years and has been on expeditions to very harsh places so clearly it is a decent, proven design. Never liked them myself (fiddly inner first pitch, wee porches).

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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by ossie »

My bag is a two season Vango job that cost about £50 6 years back.......I guess its slightly more now .700g so nice and light.

I only do two seasons....May - October and with a silk liner its fine, I always have the option to stick on layers. Its a fine line between weight, how it packs down and price . The mat is a Neoair and the tent pretty decent in the big scheme of things I guess.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by yostumpy »

yostumpy wrote:I have an ex army down filled bag but can never seem to squash it down small enough, seems huge, but it MUST go quite small.?? have to try a stuff sack.Is there a knack?


I dug it out and had a look, its an ARCTIC down filled one, weights 3kg!!!!!!! :shock:

And the hex peak tent V4A is out of the running as well, I messaged BOB, and asked him how much bigger the later ones are, answer is minimal, and still wouldn't recommend it for 6'2". The F6 is bigger, and he is trying to persuade the maker to make a larger single inner, as they only come as doubles. Thhats going to more spendy, than the £60 Coleman Aravis 2 on Amazon. Oh dear descisions are never easy.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by crazydave789 »

I went though this and ended up camping in my 20 year old north face tadpole as it was as light, proven to work and obviously cheaper than any replacement. it seems that lighter just means more mesh and less durability, my seams are old school wet fingered silicone and not taped so they haven't failed like all my other tents.

for my bag I had an old one season bag that usually does me fine but the forecast three weeks ago looked like we were due waves of 1997 grade hurricanes, so I 'upgraded' to a second hand 2-3 season karrimor travelite bag off ebay recommended by daves travel pages that cost me 6 quid inc post and I was more than warm enough for the heatwave we ended up having as per standard british weather. I have down, pile and synthetic bags but down is the most awkward IMO, I find pile the most comfortable (buffalo bags) and easiest to deal with when wet as you can wring it out and it will still keep you warm, but it is very bulky. I often used my one season bag and a massive 3xl down parka as a quilt/camp coat on weekenders.

I can always warm up but find it harder to cool down in a sleeping bag so packed a hooded body warmer as my camp jacket and doss bag rating improver. which of course like the fleece and merino layers I packed I did not need bar the one night in thirsk which was chilly.

If I was travelling this week though I reckon I would have packed perfectly.

I have also considered using two single season bags combined to make a three/four season one as they are easier to pack being smaller and splittable so you don't have the packing a medicine ball problem. a liner adds half a season a goretex bivvy bag another season if under cover but gives you the flexibility of recovering from a bonk warm and dry if you make a swag bag up and crash out in the nearest bit of woodland.

I like light but prefer practicality more.
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by Gattonero »

PH wrote:I'm the same height and large with it, I've never found a sleeping bag that I was comfortable in and a sure way to spoil any tour is by not getting enough sleep.
I bought a camping quilt and decent mat about a decade ago and they've been fantastic. Good ones are expensive, though there's more choice now than then, but it's cheap to try by just buying a rectangle sleeping bag you can open up and accepting the extra weight and bulk while you make your mind up. Don't skimp on the mat, that's where most of your precious heat goes and no sleeping bag does much to stop it. ...


I too am a sleeping-quilt user, as when sleeping I turn let to right and back so being "bagged" doesn't work that well for me.
Quilts are also very useful in case you have to wait somewhere in the cold, nothing better than a cosy quilt over you :D
And just as said, don;t skimp on the sleeping mat: is not just a question of "comfort" but rather "insulation". A good sleeping mat will keep your body heat even on frozen ground, and that is priceless. Anytime I'd rather have a cheap-ish sleeping quilt/bag with a good sleeping mat, than the other way round: no matter how good is what you have around you, if the cold from the ground can freely reach your body :(
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by mnichols »

I'm thinking of buying a pump-up sleeping mat, bit like an old fashioned lilo that we used to use

It's for a supported, camping tour through the Himalayas. As it's supported I don't need to worry about weight (within reason). Any recommendations

Given that my tour is supported as so I don't have to worry about weight or packability, would this change anyone's sleeping bag recommendations
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Re: What sleeping bag? (oh not again!)

Post by Warin61 »

mnichols wrote:I'm thinking of buying a pump-up sleeping mat, bit like an old fashioned lilo that we used to use


1) Lilos are cold to sleep on. The air circulates within the lilo.

2) Most buy the insulated mats that inflate - they provide some insulation and comfort.

3) as your 'supported' then you might like to a get a thicker one - more comfort and more insulation.

Suggest you start a new thread with 'What sleeping pad' ..
Some brands? Thermarest, Sea to Summit, Klymit, Nemo, Big Agnes, Exped. The Expeds tend to be thick.

Most of these will indicate the insulation ability using an 'R' value - the larger the number the better.

Also - past thread viewtopic.php?f=42&t=115489
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