cheap foot print material

Specifically for cycle touring subjects & questions
psmiffy
Posts: 610
Joined: 1 May 2009, 1:32pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by psmiffy »

Sweep wrote:
psmiffy wrote:
much better in the late evening is the sign that says "camping 500m" when you think you have no chance of finding something that night


well not if they are going to charge you some barmy amount (quite common these days) and because you've turned up late, and may seem a bit in a of corner, a "move on" from your enquiry might seem (to them) to be a bit sad.



I dont think ive ever been charged over the odds for arriving late - in fact when cycling it is often the opposite - no charge
User avatar
Sweep
Posts: 8443
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 4:57pm
Location: London

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by Sweep »

psmiffy wrote:
I dont think ive ever been charged over the odds for arriving late - in fact when cycling it is often the opposite - no charge


Wasn't suggesting I would be charged over the/ir odds.

Some campsites have rather odd pre-existing odds - they aren't takimg against me.
Sweep
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Gattonero wrote:
ossie wrote:...
That said in late evening there's nothing better than cycling along perusing the landscape / fields / verges looking for that ideal wild camping spot...just in case.


I've done it a few times 8)

A lot of my camping is like that.
Not ideal in dark and cows think your farmer joe :?
Up page, find spot, lay out tent no pegs, lie on tent and think can I do this, downhill head will be felt straight away, put up tent.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by PDQ Mobile »

I can't see anybody has suggested it.
I use an emergency mountain shelter.
Just a big plastic bag. Folds smalll.
Not very heavy. Cheap.

A double size one, ie, will fit two people.
Bright orange but not an issue under the tent and maybe useful in other situations. I carry it hillwaking too.

A perfect fit under the worn out groundsheet of my old tent (Ultimate Tramp 2) with a bit coming forward into the area under the fly porch. Double thick when laid out because it's a bag.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pjclinch »

pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
Also fair comment. What I don't understand is the folk who buy the footprint to protect their incredibly expensive tent every time they use it, which is as light and expensive as it is because much money has been thrown at making it robust and light together. If you're going to make a Nallo heavier to preserve your investment then (a) you've missed the boat when it comes to paying more for a lighter tent, and (b)why not get a Nammatj instead?


They may buy the footprint because it floors the porch as well as the area beneath the groundsheet or maybe , like me, have one because it came with the tent at no extra cost. Would you say no I don't want it because it makes the tent heavier? Possession of a footprint doesn't mean it's compulsory to use it every time you pitch your tent.


As the owner of a Hille tent with a footprint that I sometimes use, sometimes don't, I'm well aware of this.
But I've seen some people justify a footprint purely on the grounds of protecting the expensive tent, irrespective of where it's used and the tent being expensive in part because it's up to very serious use. It's like buying a top of the line road bike but never going fast in case you crash.

pete75 wrote:Hilleberg tents are not particularly lightweight and anyone so concerned about weight they wouldn't ever want to carry a 390 gram groundsheet would surely spend their money with someone like Terra Nova who make very light tents indeed.


That's a bit like saying a mountain bike isn't very light when comparing it to a road bike, missing the point of the degree of ruggedness and off-road capability. For a tent as strong, spacious and easy to pitch as any given Hilleberg model, they're light. Tents are compromise designs and different designers will put those compromise points in different places: if you want lots of room then all else being equal you'll be carrying more weight too, but that doesn't mean you no longer care about weight.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pete75 »

pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:Hilleberg tents are not particularly lightweight and anyone so concerned about weight they wouldn't ever want to carry a 390 gram groundsheet would surely spend their money with someone like Terra Nova who make very light tents indeed.


That's a bit like saying a mountain bike isn't very light when comparing it to a road bike, missing the point of the degree of ruggedness and off-road capability. For a tent as strong, spacious and easy to pitch as any given Hilleberg model, they're light. Tents are compromise designs and different designers will put those compromise points in different places: if you want lots of room then all else being equal you'll be carrying more weight too, but that doesn't mean you no longer care about weight.

Pete.


Hmmmm Terra Nova tents are not known for being flimsy or poor quality. Personally I've not been that bothered about saving a kilo or two on a tent for cycle touring. In practice it make damn all difference.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pjclinch »

pete75 wrote:Hmmmm Terra Nova tents are not known for being flimsy or poor quality. Personally I've not been that bothered about saving a kilo or two on a tent for cycle touring. In practice it make damn all difference.


"Flimsy" and "not as strong as X" are not the same thing. A Laser Comp isn't "flimsy"... but it isn't as robust as an Akto (lighter poles, lighter groundsheet, single end-poles against double, faffy pole cover as optional extra for full strength, etc.). "Poor quality" and "lower QA standards than X" are not the same thing. And so on.

It's not the weight that makes me leave the Tarra for paddling trips as much as the bulk. Volume is limited on the bikes, and that's why cycle-touring the Kaitum's footprint gets left at home. Just not needed as much as the space it takes up that could go to something more useful. I'm happy taking a 3 Kg tent, but that's because I get payback in terms of space and ease of use/comfort. I've no interest in taking weight that doesn't pay back anything much.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pete75 »

pjclinch wrote:It's not the weight that makes me leave the Tarra for paddling trips as much as the bulk. Volume is limited on the bikes, and that's why cycle-touring the Kaitum's footprint gets left at home. Just not needed as much as the space it takes up that could go to something more useful. I'm happy taking a 3 Kg tent, but that's because I get payback in terms of space and ease of use/comfort. I've no interest in taking weight that doesn't pay back anything much.

Pete.

Volume limiting. Have never really found that for example with super c front and rear panniers and Camper longflap saddle bag I usually have plenty of spare space even with small tent in a pannier. It'd have to be a massive tent not to be able to fit on the rack and over the tops of the panniers.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pjclinch »

pete75 wrote:Volume limiting. Have never really found that for example with super c front and rear panniers and Camper longflap saddle bag I usually have plenty of spare space even with small tent in a pannier. It'd have to be a massive tent not to be able to fit on the rack and over the tops of the panniers.


If the only thing you're taking is a tent, fair enough... If I'm off for a week I like to have a bit more though, and I prefer to leave the rack for things that don't take to being crushed, like fresh bread and fruit.

My preferences are different from yours. Mine are different from people that have Nallos and always use them with footprints, though I still wonder if their preferences wouldn't be better served with a Nammatj (with or witthout footprint). They'd have a stronger, roomier tent, midge netting over the vents, another full vent at the back, and all the easy-pitch touches of a Nallo.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pete75 »

pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:Volume limiting. Have never really found that for example with super c front and rear panniers and Camper longflap saddle bag I usually have plenty of spare space even with small tent in a pannier. It'd have to be a massive tent not to be able to fit on the rack and over the tops of the panniers.


If the only thing you're taking is a tent, fair enough... If I'm off for a week I like to have a bit more though, and I prefer to leave the rack for things that don't take to being crushed, like fresh bread and fruit.

My preferences are different from yours. Mine are different from people that have Nallos and always use them with footprints, though I still wonder if their preferences wouldn't be better served with a Nammatj (with or witthout footprint). They'd have a stronger, roomier tent, midge netting over the vents, another full vent at the back, and all the easy-pitch touches of a Nallo.

Pete.



Actually a tent isn't the only thing I take. A thermarest, sleeping bag, spare clothes, some food and cooking stuff often comes in handy I've found.

As I said earlier just because someone has a footprint doesn't mean they always use it. Don't know where you get that idea but each to his own.

Btw a Nallo has front and rear vents, mesh covered and, if Hilleberg are to be believed, is very slightly larger than a Nammatj. Both are quoted as 2.8m2 for the inner tent but Nallo is quoted as 1.3m2 for the vestibule with 1.2m2 for the Nammatj.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pjclinch »

pete75 wrote:Actually a tent isn't the only thing I take. A thermarest, sleeping bag, spare clothes, some food and cooking stuff often comes in handy I've found.


Aye, me too. But it just might be the case that I have more of that stuff than you. There's always more stuff I'd like to take if I had TARDIS panniers, but I don't so there's always a trade-off and tent volume is part of that. That might be the case for some other people too.

pete75 wrote:As I said earlier just because someone has a footprint doesn't mean they always use it. Don't know where you get that idea but each to his own.


As I said arlier, I'm someone with a footprint that doesn't always use it. But I get the idea that some people do because I've seen them say on the Interweb etc. that that's what they do.

pete75 wrote:Btw a Nallo has front and rear vents, mesh covered and, if Hilleberg are to be believed, is very slightly larger than a Nammatj. Both are quoted as 2.8m2 for the inner tent but Nallo is quoted as 1.3m2 for the vestibule with 1.2m2 for the Nammatj.


The Nammatj has wired cowl vents on the outer at both front and rear, the Nallo only has one at the front, and while the Nammatj's cowl vents have zip-out mesh and snow covers the Nallo's cowl is integrated in to the outer door and there is no mesh (all the mesh is on the inner, Nammatj and Keron protect their porch space as well as the inner from bugs). The rear vent on the Nallo fly is simpler to save weight, and needs external access to roll up the fly a bit, while the Nammatj's is higher for more effectiveness and can be opened up from inside.
As for "larger", I'm meaning volume rather than area, what with being 3 dimensional myself, and since the Nammatj's roof doesn't taper downwards between the poles there's more space inside.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pete75 »

pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:Actually a tent isn't the only thing I take. A thermarest, sleeping bag, spare clothes, some food and cooking stuff often comes in handy I've found.


Aye, me too. But it just might be the case that I have more of that stuff than you. There's always more stuff I'd like to take if I had TARDIS panniers, but I don't so there's always a trade-off and tent volume is part of that. That might be the case for some other people too.

So why use a phrase like "If the only thing you're taking is a tent, fair enough"


pjclinch wrote:As I said arlier, I'm someone with a footprint that doesn't always use it. But I get the idea that some people do because I've seen them say on the Interweb etc. that that's what they do.

If someone who has bought a footprint wants to use it all the time that is their concern not yours.

pjclinch wrote:
The Nammatj has wired cowl vents on the outer at both front and rear, the Nallo only has one at the front, and while the Nammatj's cowl vents have zip-out mesh and snow covers the Nallo's cowl is integrated in to the outer door and there is no mesh (all the mesh is on the inner, Nammatj and Keron protect their porch space as well as the inner from bugs). The rear vent on the Nallo fly is simpler to save weight, and needs external access to roll up the fly a bit, while the Nammatj's is higher for more effectiveness and can be opened up from inside.


Having one vent low down and one higher up will provide better ventilation than a pair at the same height because of warmer air rising. So no insects can enter the Nammatj porch from ground level? So what if a vent is opened from the outside.

pjclinch wrote:As for "larger", I'm meaning volume rather than area, what with being 3 dimensional myself, and since the Nammatj's roof doesn't taper downwards between the poles there's more space inside.


You must have bloody big feet if you're bothered about height at the foot end of the tent. Personally I'd rather have the Nallo one metre at the door end and sloping down a bit rather than 95cm all the way along. At least I can sit up at one end without my head touching the inner sometimes. Anyhow my Nallo is a decent enough tent for the £150 it cost second hand in excellent condition.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by meic »

There are perfectly good reasons for always using a footprint with your tent compared to buying a tent with a heavier duty groundsheet.
You can replace the scuffed, worn or holed footprint anytime you want, with no hassle and less expense ( free with old shower curtains) than replacing a groundsheet.
You can separate off the muddy footprint when you get home to leave outside for hosing down sometime later, while taking a comparatively clean tent into the house to dry.
If you find a nice spot under shelter you can just lay out the footprint to protect your mat for the night.
Yma o Hyd
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by mercalia »

meic wrote:There are perfectly good reasons for always using a footprint with your tent compared to buying a tent with a heavier duty groundsheet.
You can replace the scuffed, worn or holed footprint anytime you want, with no hassle and less expense ( free with old shower curtains) than replacing a groundsheet.
You can separate off the muddy footprint when you get home to leave outside for hosing down sometime later, while taking a comparatively clean tent into the house to dry.
If you find a nice spot under shelter you can just lay out the footprint to protect your mat for the night.


exactly. otherwise you have to get the tent out to give it a clean when you get home
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: cheap foot print material

Post by pjclinch »

pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:Actually a tent isn't the only thing I take. A thermarest, sleeping bag, spare clothes, some food and cooking stuff often comes in handy I've found.


Aye, me too. But it just might be the case that I have more of that stuff than you. There's always more stuff I'd like to take if I had TARDIS panniers, but I don't so there's always a trade-off and tent volume is part of that. That might be the case for some other people too.

So why use a phrase like "If the only thing you're taking is a tent, fair enough"


Because I was being facetious. I'm too old to put smileys on everything that needs an irony detector, sorry.

pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:As I said arlier, I'm someone with a footprint that doesn't always use it. But I get the idea that some people do because I've seen them say on the Interweb etc. that that's what they do.

If someone who has bought a footprint wants to use it all the time that is their concern not yours.


Indeed, just as it's no concern of mine if people want to ride/hike everywhere in a Goretex jacket no matter what the weather, but similarly there exists the possibility their life might be a little better another way.

pete75 wrote:
Having one vent low down and one higher up will provide better ventilation than a pair at the same height because of warmer air rising. So no insects can enter the Nammatj porch from ground level? So what if a vent is opened from the outside.


It's because of warm air rising you want the vents as chimneys and that means high.
As it notes in Hille's literature, the Black Label tents are the most comfortable and the Red Label ones make concessions to comfort to trim the weight a bit.

For your second point, I suspect either you're not very familiar with midges and mozzies, particularly in the "dense cloud" formations of the former that exist in prime Scottish camping territory, or have blanked the horrors from your mind when composing your post. There is no problem with masses of midges entering under the fly. There is a big problem with them getting in to a porch. So what if a vent is open from outside? If, for example, I want to shut it in the night because it's got very cold I'd much rather not have to get out of bed. It's certainly not insurmountable but it goes back to the comfort distinction between Black and Red. If all else is equal, more comfort and convenience is better than less. Or that's how it works for me.

pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:As for "larger", I'm meaning volume rather than area, what with being 3 dimensional myself, and since the Nammatj's roof doesn't taper downwards between the poles there's more space inside.


You must have bloody big feet if you're bothered about height at the foot end of the tent. Personally I'd rather have the Nallo one metre at the door end and sloping down a bit rather than 95cm all the way along. At least I can sit up at one end without my head touching the inner sometimes. Anyhow my Nallo is a decent enough tent for the £150 it cost second hand in excellent condition.


I don't see what my feet have got to do with the overall volume of the inner. Because the tunnel section of the Nammatj is a half cylinder against a half truncated cone there's more of it. And you don't get 100 cm sitting height at the door in a Nallo because it's a peak point and not a sustained height. This wouldn't be much of a problem with one, but it's not unreasonable to assume that such a tent might be brought for a pair, what with being sold as a two person tent, and in that case the extra volume of the inner makes much more of a difference (why we have a Kaitum and not a Nallo GT, despite overall size being very similar, and why the more comfort-oriented Black Label Nammatj doesn't taper in the tunnel section).

meic wrote:There are perfectly good reasons for always using a footprint with your tent compared to buying a tent with a heavier duty groundsheet. You can replace the scuffed, worn or holed footprint anytime you want, with no hassle and less expense ( free with old shower curtains) than replacing a groundsheet. You can separate off the muddy footprint when you get home to leave outside for hosing down sometime later, while taking a comparatively clean tent into the house to dry. If you find a nice spot under shelter you can just lay out the footprint to protect your mat for the night


No argument with those, but back at the head of the thread the OP particularly worried about the modern trend for very flimsy groundsheets that need protecting in any case. And I think with some modern tents where the design goal has been minimising the final weight at the expense of some practicality that's fair comment. With something like a Laser Comp there's good reason: it was designed for mountain marathon use where every gramme really does count, plus TN know what they're doing and threw some money at the materials, but there's plenty of cheaper very light things these days where the reasoning seems to be marketing bullet points. Something like a Nallo has its design compromises set much further up the robustness scale and you can use it without a footprint with every expectation of not damaging anything. Yet I've seen quite a few posts over the years indicating e.g. Aktos and Nallos (i.e., the most well known best-sellers that turn up the most in Top 10 Best Tents lists) would always be used with a footprint on the assumption that they'd be damaged if they didn't.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Post Reply