Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

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yutkoxpo
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Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by yutkoxpo »

Hi,

As the title says, I'm considering the option of converting my old Coleman tunnel tent to try to make it freestanding.

Why? you ask.

It's an old, cheapy tunnel tent, but it has never let me down and most importantly it is fully waterproof.

Last year I splashed out and spent 12 times the cost of the Coleman on a selfstanding 4 season tent only to be terribly disappointed. (I'm withholding the brand & model as I'm currently awaiting an assessment from the manufacturer).

The problem is that rain soaks through the flysheet meaning that I need to dismantle the inner every morning to pack, otherwise the inner is soaked. The tent is designed to be "all up and down in one" if you understand my meaning.

On top of that, the floor allows moisture to seep through when pitched on wet ground.

I'm certain that condensation is not the issue here - Last weekend I tested the floor with a groundsheet covering half the floor. The half without the groundsheet was wet next morning. In addition, the side panels of the inner were open all night (bloody cold on the Dutch coast!) so there was no shortage of ventilation.

I wasn't too bothered in the summer/autumn as an hour or two up in any kind of a breeze and the tent was dry. But at this time of the year it's a real pain in the ass. Wipe down the Fly (outside). Dry floor (inside). Take down inner. Wipe down fly (inside). Pack fly separately in waterproof bag to inner.

In comparison, my old Coleman never allowed water to penetrate through the fly so a quick wipe in the morning and the moisture was 95% gone.
the floor is heavy duty (never needed a groundsheet) and never let water seep through. I could roll it up with no worries that my inner was soaked that evening.

I specifically sought out a free-standing tent for travelling further afield where fully pegging out a tent is not an option. I understand that a free standing tent is not that secure in windy conditions without pegs, but I can live with that.

So, I'm looking for suggestions to enable me to pitch the Coleman tunnel in those cases where pegging is not an option or limited.

Any advice?

Many thanks

Frank
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by PH »

HobbesOnTour wrote:The problem is that rain soaks through the flysheet meaning that I need to dismantle the inner every morning to pack, otherwise the inner is soaked. The tent is designed to be "all up and down in one" if you understand my meaning.

Have you tested this? Easy to do - tie a section of it over a bucket so it forms a hollow, fill with water, leave overnight. Test the groundsheet in the same way.
As for making the tunnel free standing, I think it'll be over complicated, it'd probably need an elaborate pole structure to keep the shape.
BTW I've never had a tent that I would be happy to pack all in one, for this reason I prefer inner first pitching.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

There's various ways to peg out a tent without, errr, pegs.

Image

This one is using large pegging loops and guys around piles of rocks, because the turf is an inch thick over a shingle beach and pegs didn't work. On sand or snow you can use bags filled with sand or snow, and you can clip on valances attached to pegging points with rocks or piles/bags of stones placed on them.

I used to have a Saunders Snowcat, which was the Galaxy tunnel with a fin on the top for a semi-floating ridgepole. The idea was to make it better at dealing with snow, but it did mean it would sort of stand up on its own... but you'd still need to peg the porches out or they'd just hang there like curtains. I'd agree with PH that retro-fitting free-standing to your tent would almost certainly be more trouble than it's worth.

I'd also agree with PH about the easy way to test the fabric on your tent for being waterproof.

Condensation is insidious stuff and can easily look like a leak. Ventilation isn't necessarily as much help as marketing releases like to suggest. If you have a night where there's a heavy dew then with 100% ventilation every blade of grass around is getting absolutely soaked, so if you've opened up all the venting in your tent you're just letting in very moist air which can cool down and drop its load all over any condensing surface (which would mainly be the groundsheet, as it's cooled by the ground, and the fly walls, cooled by outisde air and more dew). A double groundsheet is significantly less prone to condensation, but where you do get condensation inside on the floor it's usually lots of fine droplets in an even cover rather than puddles.

The tent pitched in the picture above has taken some pretty serious rain and is pretty much definitely waterproof. On a couple of consecutive (non-rainy) nights pitched on the Black Isle once the only obvious change in conditions was the humidity. First night there was little dew and the tent was pretty much completely dry. Second night, a heavy dew soaked the whole site and the inside of the fly was literally dripping in the morning. Had it been raining too it would have looked very much like it was leaking. Such heavy condensation is relatively unusual but it does happen, though being unusual it's possible to spend lots of nights in one tent and not have an obvious problem.

I've woken up to think my groundsheet was leaking a few times, but it was just condensation with cold, wet ground giving mosit air an excellent place to dump its moisture. On a couple of these occasions the sheet turned out to be afloat where it wasn't being weighed down, so a fine film of droplets was actually a pretty good result!

I've packed all-in-ones when there's been a lot of condensation, and it's really not been the end of the world. The inner soon dries on re-pitch because it's very fine and has a DWR coat so it holds very little water. For the same reason the oft given reason for inner-first being bad because the inner can get wet pitching is a bit of a moot point. What you can't do with an inner-first pitch is dismount the inner for extra party and/or cooking space or bike-workshop space without getting your bedroom dirty, which is something I've always liked.

Pete.
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yutkoxpo
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by yutkoxpo »

PH wrote:Have you tested this? Easy to do - tie a section of it over a bucket so it forms a hollow, fill with water, leave overnight. Test the groundsheet in the same way.
As for making the tunnel free standing, I think it'll be over complicated, it'd probably need an elaborate pole structure to keep the shape.
BTW I've never had a tent that I would be happy to pack all in one, for this reason I prefer inner first pitching.


Hi PH,
Thanks for the reply.

Actually, I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't tested it specifically. I was working off a process of elimination.
I took your advice and tested (a section of) the fly last night and it is indeed watertight!

So I reckon it's back to the drawing board and looking for ways to reduce condensation.

Ironically the cheapy Coleman never had as much of an issue with condensation - perhaps the fact that it's not a 4 season tent means that there's little difference between the inside and outside temperatures at this time of the year (although the current condensation problem exists in all seasons).

Again, thanks for the practical advice!

Frank
yutkoxpo
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by yutkoxpo »

pjclinch wrote:There's various ways to peg out a tent without, errr, pegs.

.... but you'd still need to peg the porches out or they'd just hang there like curtains. I'd agree with PH that retro-fitting free-standing to your tent would almost certainly be more trouble than it's worth.

I'd also agree with PH about the easy way to test the fabric on your tent for being waterproof.


Hi Pete,
Yep, I've looked at other ways of "pegging" out the tent, none were particularly viable and none dealt properly with the porch.
As above, I've done the test (Doh!) and it is waterproof, so the issue is condensation.

pjclinch wrote:I've packed all-in-ones when there's been a lot of condensation, and it's really not been the end of the world. The inner soon dries on re-pitch because it's very fine and has a DWR coat so it holds very little water. For the same reason the oft given reason for inner-first being bad because the inner can get wet pitching is a bit of a moot point. What you can't do with an inner-first pitch is dismount the inner for extra party and/or cooking space or bike-workshop space without getting your bedroom dirty, which is something I've always liked.

Pete.


At other times of the year, it hasn't been too much of an issue to dry out the tent. But at this time of the year, even when it is dry, it just doesn't happen. Winter camping in a wet tent is not my idea of fun! :D

I'm off now to investigate how I can reduce the condensation!

Many thanks for the long and detailed reply!

Frank
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
"Mountain Tents" Tend to be free standing for obvious reasons like pitching on rocks / sand or snow / narrow ledge, even hanging.

They generally have a free standing frame so not pegs are strictly necessary.
But a fly only / fly first does not need freestanding frame, only that the poles touch the fly (normal) and you can tag the poles to the fly, many larger tents do have external poles (neater / better aesthetics) on fly which will be fly only anyway.

Its only a matter of using Velcro or string loops on inside of fly sewn at the inner seam flap, if no excess material is at the inside seam and penetrating the fly will compromise the proofing then sealing will need to be done.

IF its poles are fixed already to the fly, then rocks trees and sand bags as suggested are required if no freestanding frame.

Freestanding frame tents are generably tougher and of course heavier.

Two hoop tents win hands down for practicability, three are needed for freestanding or its a one hoop popup one :)
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by tatanab »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: three are needed for freestanding
2 are adequate. See Terra Nova Southern Cross, Hilleberg Unna or Niak for example. I have used all three of these.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Old story.....a guy gets dumped on a remote island to study nature................1st night a storm takes out wooden shelter......he had to wait three months for boat..............two tents pitched in hollows for shelter from wind and had to share with walrus population....jostling to dominate space...................every night every two hours he had to soak up and ring out water due to condensation..........he survived by imagining another person he was conversing with.....................writing a book too.

IIRC he had to re-pitch every day due to damage by walrus...............
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

HobbesOnTour wrote:I'm off now to investigate how I can reduce the condensation!


All you need to do is rewrite the laws of atmospheric physics. That might take a wee while, so in the meantime it's more a case of learning to live with it, as you have an excellent source of moisture (your good self) inside a watertight structure. Compare and contrast sitting inside a motionless car on a cold, damp day with all the windows up, and it's not long before the windows start to fog up. You can open them, of course, but that makes everything rather colder which isn't necessarily what you want.

But if you've got a film of water droplets on the inside of the fly... so what? The DWR on the inner means that when someone trips over a guy and lots of them come loose, you don't get wet. If the inner gets a bit damp it'll soon dry out to the point where it's not really an issue. You can reduce condensation on the floor with an extra groundsheet, but as long as your sleeping bag stays on the mat it'll stay dry, and that's the really important thing. The function of the tent is to keep you sheltered, which mainly boils down to warmth and comfort. No reason you can't have those even with condensation. Though I'd agree it's nicer not to have condensation, given a choice between warm and moist and cold and dry I'd take the former on a winter night.

Venting is a Good Thing and does help, but it's not the Big Answer the wee diagrams with arrows in the brochures make it out to be (very much the same goes for "breathable" waterproof jackets, which have been disappointing users for decades now). Aside from cooling things down when you want to be warm there's also only so much you can do by opening holes. When the air outside is dumping moisture everywhere anyway, bringing it in doesn't necessarily help. If it's cold I tend to use the vents when cooking but close things up for sleep, because moving air just takes the heat away.

Wiping everything dry is just a way to get your cloths wet. Keep them for drying yourself. Unless you're in constant contact with the walls (and if you are I'd suggest that's maybe a poor choice of tent for winter camping) just let the condensation stay there, where it isn't actually getting you wet.

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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
tatanab wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: three are needed for freestanding
2 are adequate. See Terra Nova Southern Cross, Hilleberg Unna or Niak for example. I have used all three of these.

Yes you are right, you are tied to one shape and dome tents have been popular for many years with three hoops, genuine mountain types especially with porches tend to have many frame poles.
Weight is always a killer if you demand space, good head height will always mean that a simple design which is light is two hoops and not a dome type as you are tied to centre height vs floor space with stability.

It always compromises with tents as the wonderer / explorer on their own wishing light weight makes a decision between practical space vs weight, two persons have more choice.

Practical space.
Weight per person.
Stability and condensation transfer when tent skins touch.
Freestanding adds even more compromises.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by PH »

pjclinch wrote:
HobbesOnTour wrote:I'm off now to investigate how I can reduce the condensation!

All you need to do is rewrite the laws of atmospheric physics. That might take a wee while, so in the meantime it's more a case of learning to live with it,
Pete.


+1 to what Pete says.
It's also possible you've just been unlucky, sometimes I'll get loads of condensation one day and hardly any the next without really noticing much difference between them.
Some days you're going to get condensation whatever you do or whatever tent you use, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth seeing if you can minimise it. I changed from a Coleman to a Terra Nova, the big difference was the Coleman had a large gap under the fly and on the TN it goes right down to the ground, this is a common difference between US and Euro designs. When there's some air movement, I'll lift the fly in a couple of places (Pannier pocking out does it well) unless the weather makes it a bad idea, I'm sure it helps.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

PH wrote:
Some days you're going to get condensation whatever you do or whatever tent you use, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth seeing if you can minimise it. I changed from a Coleman to a Terra Nova, the big difference was the Coleman had a large gap under the fly and on the TN it goes right down to the ground, this is a common difference between US and Euro designs. When there's some air movement, I'll lift the fly in a couple of places (Pannier pocking out does it well) unless the weather makes it a bad idea, I'm sure it helps.


With this in mind, a clear and highlighted design difference between Hilleberg's 3 and 4 season models is in the latter the fly very specifically goes down to the ground and in the former it quite deliberately doesn't. I imagine they've given this some thought and practical testing!
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Warin61 »

pjclinch wrote:
PH wrote:With this in mind, a clear and highlighted design difference between Hilleberg's 3 and 4 season models is in the latter the fly very specifically goes down to the ground and in the former it quite deliberately doesn't.


Being able to pitch the fly to the ground not only helps with snow, but also dust storms. Ideally varying the pitch of the fly should give you the option of fly to ground or not.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
For those Tarp and Sub four season tent users-
You need a bigger warmer sleeping bag when its windy.
Having a to the ground fly is a bonus.

I have a tent with both design fly's, one night (15c) a too warm sleeping bag meant I was constantly opening bag and then freezing from the draft, to cover up again and again........
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

Warin61 wrote:
Being able to pitch the fly to the ground not only helps with snow, but also dust storms. Ideally varying the pitch of the fly should give you the option of fly to ground or not.


Varying the pitch of the fly may well be possible with an inner-first and throw-over fly, but on an all-in-one or fly-first you're typically stuck with what you've got (the original Hille 3-season tents had sliding flysheets, but they dispensed with those in the Mk 2s; I imagine they were rather more trouble than they were worth). But as PH noted, propping up the hem with something will let a bit more air in if that's what you want to do.

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