Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

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pjclinch
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

Also perhaps worth noting that "seasons ratings" on tents mean very different things to different designers, marketing departments and users. If you're Bo Hilleberg then winter probably implies spindrift and that means a fly that goes down to the ground, where for somewhere with rather less snow to deal with it might well be about extra wind resistance (though you can get gales in summer, of course), and so on.

There's no shortage of use of "3 season" tents in winter, where the design points that would make it "4 season" are something the user doesn't need or worry about in their particular context (not many campers actually need prolonged snow loading capability, for example). What you can generally be assured of is that since tents are compromise designs, most Features have corresponding downsides (you want strong? you can have strong, but it won't be as light, etc. etc.).

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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Sweep »

pjclinch wrote: (you want strong? you can have strong, but it won't be as light, etc. etc.).

Pete.


But you can I think have strong and pretty cheap? And the lack of what some demand in terms of lightness may not be a great problem on a bike?
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by pjclinch »

Sweep wrote:
pjclinch wrote: (you want strong? you can have strong, but it won't be as light, etc. etc.).

Pete.


But you can I think have strong and pretty cheap? And the lack of what some demand in terms of lightness may not be a great problem on a bike?


Yes. The rule of thumb is, strong, light, cheap; pick any 2.

Whether or not weight is a great problem is very much up to you. The weight-weenies among us would baulk at a 2 Kg solo tent, some people will take a Force 10 just for themselves, I'm somewhere in the middle. Part of the reason I don't want a heavy tent for just me is my touring bike (a full-sus steel recumbent) is already pretty heavy to start with.

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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by PH »

pjclinch wrote:
Sweep wrote:
pjclinch wrote: (you want strong? you can have strong, but it won't be as light, etc. etc.).

Pete.


But you can I think have strong and pretty cheap? And the lack of what some demand in terms of lightness may not be a great problem on a bike?


Yes. The rule of thumb is, strong, light, cheap; pick any 2.

If you're lucky, usually you only get to pick 1.5
There isn't much of a market for small tents that aren't lightweight, so when a manufacturer at the budget end makes a small tent from cheaper materials, they are considering weight and will make compromises to achieve the lowest they can.
There is no reason you can't have something of a similar design and as well made as a Hilleberg, but made from cheaper materials (Which would still be adequate for most cycle tourists) but IMO it would be considered too heavy to sell in large enough quantities to warrant the volume production that it'd need.
I don't know what the breakdown is between material costs and production, but between both ends of the market I have no doubt there'll be a bigger difference in production costs than materials, it's the same across all industries.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Gattonero »

What's the point of a small tent that is made deliberately heavy? Trading valuable space and feeling cramped for the next 20 years? I guess the vast majority will be happy with 5-10yrs of service for a tent that like-for-like in weight does offer much more space.
There's lots of 2-berth tents out there, reasonably priced, that would hit the 2kg weight and be a palace for the solo user.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by PH »

Gattonero wrote:What's the point of a small tent that is made deliberately heavy?

It wouldn't be deliberately heavy, just less deliberately light :wink:
For example - I've seen several otherwise decent tents that have too much mesh for my liking for it seems no other reason than weight saving.
I believe most cheap (Say sub £150) tents could be improved (My criteria obviously) for an additional 1/2 kg, most cycle tourists probably wouldn't even notice that, every hiker probably would.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Gattonero »

PH wrote:
Gattonero wrote:What's the point of a small tent that is made deliberately heavy?

It wouldn't be deliberately heavy, just less deliberately light :wink:
For example - I've seen several otherwise decent tents that have too much mesh for my liking for it seems no other reason than weight saving.
I believe most cheap (Say sub £150) tents could be improved (My criteria obviously) for an additional 1/2 kg, most cycle tourists probably wouldn't even notice that, every hiker probably would.


My opinion is that most cyclo tourists will be fine with a mid-range tent like those below, I cannot see them failing before several years of normal service.
I've had a Vango tent and they're good value for money, surely there's even better materials out there, but for <£150 it's a good deal for a tent that's only 2kg and spacious

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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by horizon »

Gattonero wrote:What's the point of a small tent that is made deliberately heavy?



Loads of points. You can have a strong, weatherproof tent made of a material you want. Lightweight and small go together to produce a very lightweight tent (marketing Holy Grail and great for walkers). But as PH points out above, no manufacturer is going to risk low numbers in a very small market. I sacrifice space and weight with my Force Ten to gain strength and what I would term comfort. They are no longer made (and there is no replacement on the market) so the argument is well and truly buried - for 99% of people. And indeed I wonder what good things would happen if we could drop the weight obsession for a minute.

One thing i would like to reiterate here (and comments are most welcome) is that changes in tent design (from ridge to tunnel and dome) came hand in hand with new materials (nylon etc). You are welcome to speculate as to what relates to what. After all, you can make a nylon ridge (obviously) and, less obviously, you can make a cotton dome (we have one). But heavier tents are out there (dome plus nylon) for expeditions and mountain use.

The great irony for me is that people buy nylon (for nylon by the way read all the man-made fabrics) and domes for larger tents when they in fact travel by car. I presume we are looking at lower handling weight, lower cost and easier drying but at the cost of UV degradation, less insulation, poorer stability and frankly yucky plastic (but that's a personal preference). When I see that, I think that the whole market is distorted so my attention turns to smaller tnets with a sceptical eye.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by horizon »

And another thing .... :D

Footprints! Yes, fabulously light tent that you then carry an extra groundsheet for! Surely a con?
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by horizon »

Gattonero wrote:
My opinion is that most cyclo tourists will be fine with a mid-range tent like those below, I cannot see them failing before several years of normal service.
I've had a Vango tent and they're good value for money, surely there's even better materials out there, but for <£150 it's a good deal for a tent that's only 2kg and spacious



Totally agree. Yes, I want something different but basically these tents are amazing and a million miles from the cheaper offerings in the old days (single skin, heavy cotton, no sewn-in (let alone "bath-tub") groundsheet, no extended flysheet, no zips, heavy poles (I've had wooden ones!).

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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by PH »

Gattonero wrote:My opinion is that most cyclo tourists will be fine with a mid-range tent like those below, I cannot see them failing before several years of normal service.
I've had a Vango tent and they're good value for money, surely there's even better materials out there, but for <£150 it's a good deal for a tent that's only 2kg and spacious

It as as you say opinion, I can see compromises with both those tents that a little additional weight would improve. It isn't about materials, I was making the opposite point, the cheaper materials are indeed excellent, far better than anything available a short time ago. My point was that the cheaper tents aren't made to the same design as the best, and that this would be entirely possible if weight was less of a consideration.
For example - you could make a cheap pole as strong as anything made, it would just be a bit heavier. But this isn't what happens, cheaper tents will have poles of a similar specification but made from an inferior material so they're not as strong. I can't see any reasoning for this other than weight. People could decide for themselves how important that is, except they are not being given the choice, because the market for such tents is too small for them to be made in quantities that would be commercially viable. Which leaves us with all we have - opinion.

Your other point is longevity, several years of normal service is enough for the current market but not for me, that's a comment on society rather than tents. It's an argument I seem to be more frequently on the losing side of, I'd argue something costing twice as much or being a little heavier and lasting three times longer is better value, the counter argument is that is you've no interest in keeping it three times longer it has no extra value at all.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Gattonero »

PH wrote:
Gattonero wrote:My opinion is that most cyclo tourists will be fine with a mid-range tent like those below, I cannot see them failing before several years of normal service.
I've had a Vango tent and they're good value for money, surely there's even better materials out there, but for <£150 it's a good deal for a tent that's only 2kg and spacious

It as as you say opinion, I can see compromises with both those tents that a little additional weight would improve. It isn't about materials, I was making the opposite point, the cheaper materials are indeed excellent, far better than anything available a short time ago. My point was that the cheaper tents aren't made to the same design as the best, and that this would be entirely possible if weight was less of a consideration.
For example - you could make a cheap pole as strong as anything made, it would just be a bit heavier. But this isn't what happens, cheaper tents will have poles of a similar specification but made from an inferior material so they're not as strong. I can't see any reasoning for this other than weight. People could decide for themselves how important that is, except they are not being given the choice, because the market for such tents is too small for them to be made in quantities that would be commercially viable. Which leaves us with all we have - opinion.

Your other point is longevity, several years of normal service is enough for the current market but not for me, that's a comment on society rather than tents. It's an argument I seem to be more frequently on the losing side of, I'd argue something costing twice as much or being a little heavier and lasting three times longer is better value, the counter argument is that is you've no interest in keeping it three times longer it has no extra value at all.


You can always replace the poles. And longevity is very relative, after all we too change our views so how can one be so sure his body will cope with a small tent that offers very little space for the next 20 years? Besides, I believe that even mid-cheap tents like the ones above can easily have 10+yrs of service and been recycled anyway :)
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Gattonero »

horizon wrote:
Gattonero wrote:What's the point of a small tent that is made deliberately heavy?



Loads of points. You can have a strong, weatherproof tent made of a material you want. Lightweight and small go together to produce a very lightweight tent (marketing Holy Grail and great for walkers). But as PH points out above, no manufacturer is going to risk low numbers in a very small market. I sacrifice space and weight with my Force Ten to gain strength and what I would term comfort. They are no longer made (and there is no replacement on the market) so the argument is well and truly buried - for 99% of people. And indeed I wonder what good things would happen if we could drop the weight obsession for a minute.

One thing i would like to reiterate here (and comments are most welcome) is that changes in tent design (from ridge to tunnel and dome) came hand in hand with new materials (nylon etc). You are welcome to speculate as to what relates to what. After all, you can make a nylon ridge (obviously) and, less obviously, you can make a cotton dome (we have one). But heavier tents are out there (dome plus nylon) for expeditions and mountain use.

The great irony for me is that people buy nylon (for nylon by the way read all the man-made fabrics) and domes for larger tents when they in fact travel by car. I presume we are looking at lower handling weight, lower cost and easier drying but at the cost of UV degradation, less insulation, poorer stability and frankly yucky plastic (but that's a personal preference). When I see that, I think that the whole market is distorted so my attention turns to smaller tnets with a sceptical eye.


I see myself not obsessed by weight but maybe obsessed by not been somewhat a masochist? Why on earth would I deliberately carry 15kg of equipment on a 20kg bike when I can have bike+equipment within 20kg which saves me a lot of effort especially going uphill?
Like said above, I've no idea what I'm going to do the next 20 years, maybe I'll have a very sore back so what's the point of investing in a heavy and small tent that would make me sleep bad?
Nylon is a fantastic material, just like carbon-fiber in bike frames is strong and light and versatile, what's not to like? Well, it all goes wrong when it's badly designed and badly manufactured. I certainly don't miss the days of cotton tents that had to be re-erected once back home and stay days and days to dry. Cotton is a lovely material, but not for a backpacking/cyclotouring tent IMO, you want something that dries up quick and takes little space and bulk. I'm with you regarding family camping with a car, I'd choose a heavy cotton tipi! 8)
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by horizon »

Gattonero wrote:[quot
Why on earth would I deliberately carry 15kg of equipment on a 20kg bike when I can have bike+equipment within 20kg which saves me a lot of effort especially going uphill?


My impression is that cyclists use camping as a means to cycle whereas I might use a cycle as a means to camp. With a strong bike, low daily mileages and low gears, weight is really pretty tolerable. Go with somebody else and it's a breeze. Pick up the groceries along the way, carry a couple of books, share the tools - a kg or two on the tent really isn't important IMV. Spend more than one day at the campsite (why not the whole week?) and luxuriate in a large, heavy cotton tent. :)

Now switch to a high daily mileage, travelling on your own, one night at each stop, quick morning packaway. I have another tent for this - it's a small Saunders ridge but nylon throughout and a bit flimsy but brilliant and completely weatherproof. 1.5 kg.

As I said, I think there's more of the latter nowadays than the former so light weight (and lighter the better) will win in this circumstance and rightly so.
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Re: Converting a Tunnel tent to freestanding - Anyone done it? Any advice?

Post by Sweep »

Wow this thread has moved on.

Just to say I agree with PH's points and would actually prefer my diminutive ionosphere to be a tad heavier/tougher. Haven't camped in it yet but some bits do feel ever so slightly too lightweight. Suppose tis because it's maybe pitched at tougher types than me who would be yomping with it on their back.

Look forward to reading reccos of cheap tough tents.

Generally agree about Vango, despite issues with my spirit 200+ poles.
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