Advice required on choice of 2/3 person lightweight tent

[foxyrider]

I too am in the market for a new lightweight, 2 person 3-4 season tent for Bike Touring.

I currently have the MSR Hubba Hubba which has served me well for the past 2.5 years and plenty of touring KM's all over the globe.

I've just retuned to NZ after 3 months in the Indian Himalaya and Europe (Poland, Czech, Austria, Germany, Swiss, France)

What i'm experiencing now with my tent is "Fly -Stretch" - well, thats what I term it - when pitched in good conditions the tent is fine.....which is to be expected. When the Fly gets wet it absorbs the water, rather than repels it, gets heavy and ends up touching the inner tent and I get wet inside!!

When it rains I leap outside and tighten down the four pole corners of the fly as far as they go, but this still does not prevent me getting wet! The tension straps are maxed out and the fly still sags into the Inner!
I DO NOT use the guy out lines at all and I'm wondering if I should try this to see if it helps?? Yes??

I really like the tent and was wondering if I should contact MSR and see if I can just buy a replacement fly?, but.....any comments on my Hubba Hubba Fly situation,

I was camping with a friend using a Hubba Hubba a couple of weeks ago, I was in my Vaude Power Lizard SU. Both tents have a similar outer/inner gap.

There was a heavy overnight down pour and both tents suffered 'wet sag' to some extent. My Vaude was sorted quite easily with a quick re-peg but the HH couldn't be helped despite being fully guyed out (I know as I kept tripping on the damn things!)

TBH, whilst I can see some good points with the HH, the geodesic pole arrangement is not one of them - it's almost impossible to add tension to the outer.

As an aside, whilst there was contact on the Vaude and the inner got wet I didn't. My friend also didn't report getting any significant ingress despite much more contact. (he does however keep everything bagged just in case!)

[JackRabbitSlims]

^^

Thanks for the reply

Yeah, I understand what you mean!

I forgot to mention in my post that my poles are also a little bent out of shape....especially the shorter of the two. This isn't helping the situation either.
They either travel in my bike box or in my checked duffle bag.....both locations they seem to take a hiding.

Have just unpacked my gear after returning home to find my GSI Minimalist Solo cooking kit with a massive dent in one side!! I use my sleeping bag to fill all free space in my duffle and pack well to avoid too much free space. What are these Airport baggage handling A-Holes doing that would allow this to happen....its basically useless now.

I've just sent an email to MSR to ask if it's possible to buy a replacement fly, but I fear it will just repeat.....??

[pjclinch]

<snip>
I DO NOT use the guy out lines at all and I'm wondering if I should try this to see if it helps?? Yes??

It's unlikely to make things worse and will greatly add to the tent's ability to deal with winds, so I'd at least give it a try...

However.....i'm also looking at a potential replacement and I'm leaning towards a Hilleberg as I have some big tours in the pipeline that could cover all seasons. I want a 2 person freestanding and I like the look of the Allak. Whilst recently in Germany (Dresden) I was able to see this tent in a store and I was surprised how much heavier it was packaged up than the Hubba Hubba, however when I saw the pitched version and had a thorough going over of the tent etc....the build quality, fabric, layout etc, I'm happy to go heavier for a better tent for my purposes. I want longevity and durability.

Another option would be the Rogen, similar weight and size to the Hubba Hubba, and while technically "3 season" that's mesh doors and a fly that doesn't get to the ground, rather than "weak". Like the HH you need to peg out the porches but it should be stronger (two main poles rather than one, no "hub" pole joins that aren't really field-fixable, much greater tear strength for the fly because it doesn't have a PU inner coat, more guying possibilities from external poles).

I don't have an Allak but I'm familiar with the layout and the general pitching of Hille domes. We do have a Hubba Hubba HP. The Allak is an altogether more serious bit of kit (which it damn well should be, given the price) and I'd expect it to last a lot longer and stand up to much more serious flak. It's better for marginal pitches because the porches don't need pegging out and you've got far more guying possibilities from the external poles. We did consider one but ended up with a Kaitum 3 which is a similar weight but has a lot more space, but an Allak has more than enough for one and is quite reasonable for two, where we wanted generous for two that would fit three without a squeeze.

Pete.

[JackRabbitSlims]

<snip>
I DO NOT use the guy out lines at all and I'm wondering if I should try this to see if it helps?? Yes??

It's unlikely to make things worse and will greatly add to the tent's ability to deal with winds, so I'd at least give it a try...

However.....i'm also looking at a potential replacement and I'm leaning towards a Hilleberg as I have some big tours in the pipeline that could cover all seasons. I want a 2 person freestanding and I like the look of the Allak. Whilst recently in Germany (Dresden) I was able to see this tent in a store and I was surprised how much heavier it was packaged up than the Hubba Hubba, however when I saw the pitched version and had a thorough going over of the tent etc....the build quality, fabric, layout etc, I'm happy to go heavier for a better tent for my purposes. I want longevity and durability.

Another option would be the Rogen, similar weight and size to the Hubba Hubba, and while technically "3 season" that's mesh doors and a fly that doesn't get to the ground, rather than "weak". Like the HH you need to peg out the porches but it should be stronger (two main poles rather than one, no "hub" pole joins that aren't really field-fixable, much greater tear strength for the fly because it doesn't have a PU inner coat, more guying possibilities from external poles).

I don't have an Allak but I'm familiar with the layout and the general pitching of Hille domes. We do have a Hubba Hubba HP. The Allak is an altogether more serious bit of kit (which it damn well should be, given the price) and I'd expect it to last a lot longer and stand up to much more serious flak. It's better for marginal pitches because the porches don't need pegging out and you've got far more guying possibilities from the external poles. We did consider one but ended up with a Kaitum 3 which is a similar weight but has a lot more space, but an Allak has more than enough for one and is quite reasonable for two, where we wanted generous for two that would fit three without a squeeze.

Pete.

Hi Pete - thanks for the prompt, informative reply.

Yeah, Im home in NZ now and will pitch the tent for a solid cleaning and airing in the coming days.....i'll try and guy the fly out fully and take to it with a hose on sprinkler and see if there is any noticeable difference
Never had any wind issues with the tent and I've been in some good blasts over the previous couple of years....but I hear what you're saying!

Looking at the next Tour in Oct, Nov, Dec this year starting in Vancouver and riding to Mexico.....Pac NW of the USA is definitely rain country, so I want my tent to be rock solid and very waterproof.

Yes, I also looked at the Rogen as well. Weight and price point are attractive. I find the definition of 3 or 4 season tents ambiguous between manufacturers.
I am a solo Tourer and like the extra room of a 2 person set up with dual sided entry and vestibule - I really like the HHNX, but its starting to let me down and I don't think it will do as i want it to for much longer?
Do you recommend a footprint with the Hille tents?
I have one for the HHNX and it has taken a hiding with plenty of small holes and tears that have been patched.

Thanks again - its a good discussion.

[PH]

When the Fly gets wet it absorbs the water, rather than repels it, gets heavy and ends up touching the inner tent and I get wet inside!!.

Have you tried reproofing it? I used a Nikwax product when my TN was behaving the same, lasted for a couple of seasons, though I've now bought a new fly from them which I'm very happy about, particularly as the tent has been out of production for a number of years.

[willem jongman]

Sagging outers is a problem with all silicon coated nylon tents. However, it is worse with the lighter materials of the ultralight series. If you want bombproof, get a Hilleberg Black Series tent. Even so, use a footprint. We stayed for a few days at a beach campsite in Croatia some years ago. Afterwards the footprint had a couple of dozen litle holes in it. Better that than the floor of your inner tent.

[JackRabbitSlims]

When the Fly gets wet it absorbs the water, rather than repels it, gets heavy and ends up touching the inner tent and I get wet inside!!.

Have you tried reproofing it? I used a Nikwax product when my TN was behaving the same, lasted for a couple of seasons, though I've now bought a new fly from them which I'm very happy about, particularly as the tent has been out of production for a number of years.

Yes, I have the cleaning and re-proofing kit from MSR.

Gave it a full going over before leaving on my most recent trip.
Use Nikwax on my Jackets.

MSR have replied to my email and given me the NZ Distributor to contact re a new Fly - still wondering if I'm just delaying the inevitable and should really look to upgrade the tent?

[JackRabbitSlims]

Sagging outers is a problem with all silicon coated nylon tents. However, it is worse with the lighter materials of the ultralight series. If you want bombproof, get a Hilleberg Black Series tent. Even so, use a footprint. We stayed for a few days at a beach campsite in Croatia some years ago. Afterwards the footprint had a couple of dozen litle holes in it. Better that than the floor of your inner tent.

I'm leaning towards either the Allak or the Rogen.

Footprint seems like a good idea.....worked well with the HHNX!

[andrew_s]

My dead Quasar got replaced by an Allak (from Alpenstock, after failing to get Trekitt to order me in a "sand" version rather than the green/black that they had in stock).

It suits me for those occasions when I'm not in (relatively) lightweight mode. It's normally just me, so there's plenty of space, with a spare porch for pannier storage or an alternative door in case of a wind change; it pitches easily with no excessive flapping or particular worries about a half-pitched tent being weaker; it's easy to move, and I like that I can look out from under the cowl without the risk of letting in the rain.

It's not been seriously tested weather-wise so far; the worst was about 30-35 mph at Borve campsite on the west coast of Barra.

If I am being lightweight, I use the Akto.

[pjclinch]

Yes, I also looked at the Rogen as well. Weight and price point are attractive. I find the definition of 3 or 4 season tents ambiguous between manufacturers.

You find them ambiguous because they are!

Do you recommend a footprint with the Hille tents?
I have one for the HHNX and it has taken a hiding with plenty of small holes and tears that have been patched.

"It depends".
We have them for both Kaitum and Tarra, and always use them if travelling by water as the weight and bulk aren't really issues, quite possibly we'll be on a shingly campsite and why not? Cycling and walking we'd not have the Tarra (stronger than we need) and tend to leave the footprint at home, but this is in the context of Scottish walking and cycling for no more than a few days where we'll very probably be able to find a benign grassy pitch any time we need one. If I were going on a major tour overseas where I couldn't be very sure of what we'd be parked on I'd be inclined to take the footprint. That would be especially true of a Rogen which has a lighter floor.

Pete.

[PH]

MSR have replied to my email and given me the NZ Distributor to contact re a new Fly - still wondering if I'm just delaying the inevitable and should really look to upgrade the tent?

You do a lot of touring and a fair amount of it seems to be in harsh conditions. A degrading flysheet is going to be inevitable however much you spend. You've been happy with the MSR until recently (How many nights is that?), I'd be looking at how good a deal you can get on a replacement fly. I'm unconvinced another lightweight tent, such as the Rogen, would be significantly longer lasting. You can't have it all, as someone suggested above using something from Hilleberg's Black label range would last you longer, but at a cost - in cash and weight.
My touring is a lot softer than yours, a few night at a time, a few times a year. When I meet, hear, or read about people who've done extended trips in harsh conditions, I'm sometimes a little surprised at how budget some of their equipment is.

[JackRabbitSlims]

Yes, I also looked at the Rogen as well. Weight and price point are attractive. I find the definition of 3 or 4 season tents ambiguous between manufacturers.

You find them ambiguous because they are!

Do you recommend a footprint with the Hille tents?
I have one for the HHNX and it has taken a hiding with plenty of small holes and tears that have been patched.

"It depends".
We have them for both Kaitum and Tarra, and always use them if travelling by water as the weight and bulk aren't really issues, quite possibly we'll be on a shingly campsite and why not? Cycling and walking we'd not have the Tarra (stronger than we need) and tend to leave the footprint at home, but this is in the context of Scottish walking and cycling for no more than a few days where we'll very probably be able to find a benign grassy pitch any time we need one. If I were going on a major tour overseas where I couldn't be very sure of what we'd be parked on I'd be inclined to take the footprint. That would be especially true of a Rogen which has a lighter floor.

Pete.

Thanks again for your reply!

Cheers.

[JackRabbitSlims]

MSR have replied to my email and given me the NZ Distributor to contact re a new Fly - still wondering if I'm just delaying the inevitable and should really look to upgrade the tent?

You do a lot of touring and a fair amount of it seems to be in harsh conditions. A degrading flysheet is going to be inevitable however much you spend. You've been happy with the MSR until recently (How many nights is that?), I'd be looking at how good a deal you can get on a replacement fly. I'm unconvinced another lightweight tent, such as the Rogen, would be significantly longer lasting. You can't have it all, as someone suggested above using something from Hilleberg's Black label range would last you longer, but at a cost - in cash and weight.
My touring is a lot softer than yours, a few night at a time, a few times a year. When I meet, hear, or read about people who've done extended trips in harsh conditions, I'm sometimes a little surprised at how budget some of their equipment is.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I have been happy with the HHNX and yes, its done a lot of work since I bought it......i'm unsure of how many nights but its the only Tent I've owned since I started Cycle Touring.
Yes, I tend to go on big trips, NZ is a long way from anywhere....last year I rode Amsterdam to Marrakech and then on to Thailand and Laos in one hit: -13500kms in 7.5 months, 7000kms over 4 months of of riding in NZ in one hit, as above, just come back from 3 months at around 4500kms in the saddle. Quite a few smaller trips of 1-3 months closer to home in Aussie, Indonesia etc.
I'd say we'd be in the hundreds of nights spent in that tent!

Budget Equipment: - HHNX goes for around $800 NZD not including Footprint, Neo Air X-Lite $400, I have 3 sleeping bags to choose from as i also do a lot of high altitude trekking. They range between $500 - $1200......
That's just for starters!
I wouldn't call any of my kit "Budget"......perhaps mid to top range??

The NZ seller of the Hille Tents has the Allak (Red Label) listed at $1689 (880 GBP) without foot print. So, pretty much twice the price of the HH. Is it twice as good:) ??
The Staika is the Black Label 2 person freestander that I also like going for $1769.00 (922GBP)

As above, this trip to the PNW USA is gonna be wet at times.....perhaps days of wet and my current tent will not cut the mustard.
So, it's either a replacement fly and wait for that to eventually crap out, or......pull the trigger on a Red or Black label Hille.....which is most certainly NOT budget equipment

Weather is looking good here today so I'm going to pitch the tent and use the MSR cleaning and re-proofing wash. Also use the guy lines and see if that makes any difference to the wet fly?

[PH]

Budget Equipment: - HHNX goes for around $800 NZD not including Footprint, Neo Air X-Lite $400, I have 3 sleeping bags to choose from as i also do a lot of high altitude trekking. They range between $500 - $1200......
That's just for starters!
I wouldn't call any of my kit "Budget"......perhaps mid to top range??

I wasn't suggesting your equipment was budget, no offence intended
I was thinking more of the guy who I followed a few years back who rode UK to Aus over about 30 months and used a Vango Banshee (A tent that retails for less than £100) Or Alastair Humpheries who used a cheap Coleman for his four year epic trip.
I'm also reminded of the story of a couple who woke in the night thinking they were being attacked and found two small goats had got into their extended porch and were shredding the fly with their horns trying to get out - it was a £200 Vango and they told it as an amusing story, I wonder if they'd have been so amused if it was a £900 tent.
Your usage over two years is probably equivalent to mine over 15 (25ish nights @ year) I'm probably at the higher end of what's typical and the tent designers are more likely to have me in mind than you. I don't know if a tent twice the price of you present one will be twice as good, I know there's a lot of long tour folk who have concluded they're better off with something even cheaper and the expectation that it'll need fairly frequent replacement.
IMO - your MSR or something like the Rogen are the wrong tents for your use, neither up to the task of long term use or cheap enough to consider disposable.

[JackRabbitSlims]

Budget Equipment: - HHNX goes for around $800 NZD not including Footprint, Neo Air X-Lite $400, I have 3 sleeping bags to choose from as i also do a lot of high altitude trekking. They range between $500 - $1200......
That's just for starters!
I wouldn't call any of my kit "Budget"......perhaps mid to top range??

I wasn't suggesting your equipment was budget, no offence intended
I was thinking more of the guy who I followed a few years back who rode UK to Aus over about 30 months and used a Vango Banshee (A tent that retails for less than £100) Or Alastair Humpheries who used a cheap Coleman for his four year epic trip.
I'm also reminded of the story of a couple who woke in the night thinking they were being attacked and found two small goats had got into their extended porch and were shredding the fly with their horns trying to get out - it was a £200 Vango and they told it as an amusing story, I wonder if they'd have been so amused if it was a £900 tent.
Your usage over two years is probably equivalent to mine over 15 (25ish nights @ year) I'm probably at the higher end of what's typical and the tent designers are more likely to have me in mind than you. I don't know if a tent twice the price of you present one will be twice as good, I know there's a lot of long tour folk who have concluded they're better off with something even cheaper and the expectation that it'll need fairly frequent replacement.
IMO - your MSR or something like the Rogen are the wrong tents for your use, neither up to the task of long term use or cheap enough to consider disposable.

Ha ha....none taken!