Question on tarps and bivvys

[sbcoombs]

Deleted duplicate

[Tangled Metal]

I don't handle chainsaws because I don't know how to use them. I think most people would see chainsaws as a serious risk and would prefer not to use them because of that.

Camping stoves are an item loosely based on domestic gas stoves. They're something most people would feel they know how to use. The truth is complacency does kill. Complacency with using gas camping stoves inside tents with insufficient airflow is a high risk. It does kill every year. If it doesn't then almost all the campsites I've visited the year in the UK so far have had carbon monoxide warning signs around the place.

So I'm afraid risks are part of life but risks that aren't recognised as such or aren't recognised as being as high as they are will always be worth highlighting. Especially if it fits into the natural flow of a conversation. IMHO stove use inside a tent is a different class of risk to chainsaw use or even cycling on busy and fast roads.

If you work in the automotive sector (and others) you'll know any FMEA. A typical automotive FMEA has number ratings applied to severity, occurrence and detection. If the risk of failure (death) is severe a high number is assigned. If the occurrence of risk is high a high number is assigned and if the chance of detection is low a high number is assigned. Multiplied give you a risk factor, higher its worse.

Severity of gas stove use when it hits wrong it's high = death. Occurrence is possibly low to mid (subjective unless you have googled the figures). Detection? Well who carries a carbon monoxide detector with them when camping (we do actually) then that's high too. Gives a high RPN I would say. So actions needed to prevent = don't cook inside your tent.

[meic]

Or make sure your tent is adequately ventilated while cooking.
Which isnt a difficult thing to achieve. In my tent you would have to actually block up its copious mesh panels to not have adequate ventilation. Though you would nearly always be cooking in the porch rather than the inner tent body.

[Tangled Metal]

Out of curiosity chainsaw risk could be evaluated similarly.
Severity = high
Occurence = mid possibly low (subjective without figures and he accurate are figures because I wonder how many home use injuries very recorded and how do you estimate use. Occurence given as occurrence per thousands, millions or whatever unit of them being used).
Detection (of risk) = I'd put it low because I think everyone can identify chainsaw use as a very big risk.

RPN is not as high but probably high enough to trigger preventative actions being taken. Such actions could include do not use of not needed, get training, risk assess your procedures, get a contractor to do it for you.

I am not going to do a FMEA for cycling on a busy road but preventative actions by most people seem to be don't ride on busy, fast roads. As easy an action for most as not cooking inside your tent.

[meic]

I am not going to do a FMEA for cycling on a busy road but preventative actions by most people seem to be don't ride on busy, fast roads. As easy an action for most as not cooking inside your tent.

Preventative action for MOST people is dont ride a bike at all.

[Tangled Metal]

Unfortunately if airflow in most tents was at good at yours then you'd probably not get so many discussions about reducing condensation in tents on various camping and outdoors forums.

IMHO the simplest action that covers all cases (except what you could call extreme use such as high altitude or polar use of stoves and tents) is not to cook inside a tent. Your ventilation solution (with mesh tents) might apply to a lot but not all. If you're giving advice IMHO best to cater to the majority and especially the inexperienced first. You are an experienced camper, as such can assess the risk in your situation well and make your own, safe decisions on risk. Not everyone is like that.

Sorry but I've been looking at an FMEA and my mindset is in this worst case / planning for it place. If I come back tomorrow I might be closer to your point of view, perhaps.

[Tangled Metal]

I am not going to do a FMEA for cycling on a busy road but preventative actions by most people seem to be don't ride on busy, fast roads. As easy an action for most as not cooking inside your tent.

Preventative action for MOST people is dont ride a bike at all.

I nearly typed a similar idea, but I thought it too obvious so didn't type it. It's an unfortunate situation but I suspect if you applied FMEA mindset / practises to road use and the idea of preventative action to their design / use I'm sure that they'd be safer. Possibly with more cycling for everyday transport going on. We can dream!

[pjclinch]

Having done much of my camping in a mountaineering context there have been occasions where not firing up a stove inside means nothing to drink (melting snow for water). You could go outside if you don't mind hypothermia, but it turns out I do mind that, so a good winter-capable mountain tent must give the possibility of cooking reasonably safely inside.

I cook outside if it's not awful because... why take the chance and it's not like I don't like being outside when it isn't awful... But I do have both the equipment and the smarts to cook inside if it is awful (as with much to do with camping it's a bit of care and management to do it right). So there is an increase in the chance of me dying from CO poisoning on very rainy days, but is it clearly bigger than the chances of e.g. fatally crashing my bike on really rainy days (slippier road surfaces, more chances of mechanicals, poorer visibility for me and other road users, etc. etc.)?

Pete.

[Tangled Metal]

I bet the majority of campers don't winter mountaineer or have the knowledge and experience of people like PJC. Which is my point. Safety advice such as stove use is better to be based on the lowest common denominator not those who have the outliers of knowledge. People like PJC can operate stoves inside based on years of experience and knowledge of such equipment. The risks are well known to them and methods to mitigate the risks are like habit to them.

A young couple go camping fur the first time and cook inside their tent because it's raining only too find it's not burning as cleanly as it should and they slowly suffer Co poisoning. They didn't know the borrowed stove was a bit faulty or the risks of poor ventilation.

It's better to err on caution and that advice is a very good bit of advice to get out when the opportunity arises. To anyone who does know the risks then the advice isn't really aimed at you, but it's still good idea to cook outside unless you have to IMHO.

[meic]

Willem started the subject by mentioning the risks of cooking in a tent, nobody is disputing the risks.
Nor is anybody recommending cooking in a tent. Like PJC I only cook in a tent porch as a last resort.
The defence of cooking in a tent was in response to this.

Excellent point. Always amazed that folk even consider it, or talk about some tents being better for cooking in. Hell if the weather's too bad for cooking, retire tom the tent with some snacks and some wine/beer. After a day's cycling it will still be delicious. Then if in the UK and it's still bad weather cycle to a spoons for a nice breakfast.

Rather than an FEMA analysis I would do a cost benefit analysis.
The cost is a real risk of igniting a tent or if you were to close up your tent CO poisoning. The benefit is carrying on with normal camping life, not having to forgo your nice hot cuppa or not being forced to venture outside in grotty weather.

We could discuss strategies to avoid CO poisoning while cooking in a tent but that would probably also be considered as recommending cooking in a tent.

[1982john]

Don't think I could not sleep in a hooped bivvy it would seem to be much like being in a body bag!

At what temperature do you need both a bivvy and a tarp?

This is going to depend on many things like your bag and environment but say a mild night of 10c and your sleeping bag says comfort rating of 5c would you also need the bivvy?

[willem jongman]

I mentioned it because I had only been aware of the fire risk, and not of the CO risk until I saw the measurements at Backpackinglight. For many stoves the CO levels were seriously and dangerously high, but not with all of them (the differences were huge). So apart from the general advice about the risk of cooking inside, there is also the advice to avoid the bad stoves.
Part 1 of the report: https://backpackinglight.com/stoves_ten ... _monoxide/

[pjclinch]

I bet the majority of campers don't winter mountaineer or have the knowledge and experience of people like PJC. Which is my point. Safety advice such as stove use is better to be based on the lowest common denominator not those who have the outliers of knowledge. People like PJC can operate stoves inside based on years of experience and knowledge of such equipment. The risks are well known to them and methods to mitigate the risks are like habit to them.

But this line of reasoning breaks down at the point where we realise I wasn't always a middle-aged man with decades of camping experience and a collection of tents and stoves.

A young couple go camping fur the first time and cook inside their tent because it's raining only too find it's not burning as cleanly as it should and they slowly suffer Co poisoning. They didn't know the borrowed stove was a bit faulty or the risks of poor ventilation.

It's better to err on caution and that advice is a very good bit of advice to get out when the opportunity arises. To anyone who does know the risks then the advice isn't really aimed at you, but it's still good idea to cook outside unless you have to IMHO.

It is indeed a good idea to cook outside when you can, but beyond that a camping stove is a potentially explosive piece of kit and anyone using one should know what they're at and take a good deal of care. And that includes understanding the risks of CO poisoning which are easily mitigated by making sure your cooking area is well ventilated. This is not Rocket Science and is also applicable to e.g. caravans and motor-homes with built in cookers where cooking outside is not such a simple option.

My Primus MFS stove came with two sets of instructions, one was the Cover Our Legal Backsides one which told you never to cook inside (even inside a building) or within a mile of anything flammable and the other was written by a mountaineer and discussed actual use by Normal People who might not want to cook in horrible weather when there's a nice dry tent interior a few paces away. The reality is that real-world use of camping stoves includes inside tents, and it's much better to know how to do it from the start so when it happens you've taken the risks properly in to account.

Pete.

[pjclinch]

At what temperature do you need both a bivvy and a tarp?

This is going to depend on many things like your bag and environment but say a mild night of 10c and your sleeping bag says comfort rating of 5c would you also need the bivvy?

Like you say, the environmental factors will be very important. If it's dry and calm a tarp will make roughly zero difference to what your sleeping bag will be doing anyway, and indeed the bivvi may well be superfluous.

The main point of a tarp is keeping the rain off and, according to how it's pitched, some of the wind. But a bivvi is windproof and waterproof isn't it? It is (or at least, it ought to be) but you'll lose a lot more heat without a spaced bit of windproofing because the wind will take away heat from the bounday of the bivvi. Also, a bivvi in the rain will wet out at some point and the breathability will go down considerably as a result, which means stuff inside will get damper and you'll consequently get colder. Add that a wet layer on the outside is still a very effective conductor of heat.

Bivvi on its own will keep a quick shower off and deal effectively with dew etc., but while it will keep direct rainfall off you'd be better under a tarp and keeping the bivvi mostly dry. A tarp also gives a sheltered cooking spot, or somewhere to sort gear, do repairs etc. without getting soaked.

In summary, I'd say it's more about rain than simple air temperature.

Pete.

[1982john]

Thanks Pete. Out of either bivy or tarp, I'd like to try and just use the tarp as you say it gives you some cooking space. From what I've seen you can try and set them up in a way you get some good wind shelter but then if the direction changes overnight you might be in trouble. This is only really intended for decent weather / weekend tours.

To some extent I'm just going to have to do a few trial and error attempts in the garden or somewhere close by.