Ultralight Tent Materials

[willem jongman]

It is not a defect but a common issue with lightweight silicon eleastomer nylon. I find it quite acceptable with our Hileberg Nammatj 3gt and its quite heavy flysheet, but it certianly need sattention. Ik have to tension th etent every night before sleeping, and I certainly have to reduce the tension on the flysheet when away during the day, particularly if it is warm and sunny. So it helps if there is some easily adjustable tentioning system on the major staking points like at the far ends. Hillebergs have that, but not all other makes do.
Since the problem is more severe with the ultralight materials, that is one good reason for me to avoid going the ultralight route (just lightweight will do for me, also because it is less fragile and longer lasting). Addtionally, I have noticed that not surprisingly the ultralight versions of some tents have fewer pegs and staking points, so tensioning those tents nicely is harder.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Hi,
1500grams is a seriously light weight tent for two or more Psamathe!

Erm, my Power Lizard is a 2 person tent and weighs 1050g!

Yes Mountain marathon tents, cost the earth and made of tissue paper.
35 years ago there was a race to make lighter tents...................then they fell apart.
Ok modern materials..............but lack of guys etc normally mean a lot of flapping in the wind.
I have got to admit not experienced either tent so they well be good for the job............................is a 1 kg two man tent robust

[horizon]

Since the problem is more severe with the ultralight materials, that is one good reason for me to avoid going the ultralight route (just lightweight will do for me, also because it is less fragile and longer lasting). Addtionally, I have noticed that not surprisingly the ultralight versions of some tents have fewer pegs and staking points, so tensioning those tents nicely is harder.

I'm just wondering if ultra lightweight is a false economy (in weight terms).

[foxyrider]

Hi,

Hi,
1500grams is a seriously light weight tent for two or more Psamathe!

Erm, my Power Lizard is a 2 person tent and weighs 1050g!

Yes Mountain marathon tents, cost the earth and made of tissue paper.
35 years ago there was a race to make lighter tents...................then they fell apart.
Ok modern materials..............but lack of guys etc normally mean a lot of flapping in the wind.
I have got to admit not experienced either tent so they well be good for the job............................is a 1 kg two man tent robust

The PL does have guys and doesn't 'flap around' any more than other tents i've used. Is it robust? How do you gauge that, five seasons from purchase the only damage it has sustained. Is a couple of bent pegs

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Not sure if you got the "UL" version foxy?
What I expect, but a few years ago-

https://myoutdoors.co.uk/gear/gear-revi ... t-reviewed

"The transverse pole and two end poles are noticeably smaller diameter than most, guylines more akin to dental floss and the pegs not much bigger than toothpicks!"

"The inner tent is almost silk like with a very thin, soft and smooth fabric that hangs in a similar way to the curtains of a four poster bed. Ventilation is excellent thanks to the fabric, but again with 2 people in the tent it's almost impossible to prevent the inner touching the users face during the night."

[foxyrider]

It's the Power Lizard Super Ultralight purchased in 2013

[Slowroad]

Vaude Taurus Ultralight does the same, see my tent viewtopic.php?f=42&t=57568&start=495
Scroll up and see the same model pitched in sun!
Not a big issue, more of an issue is the dew on the inside after a dry night. The fly and inner stay together so the inner gets soaked. Plus I have to carry extra weight. So I might look at a tent where they are taken apart when I next buy a tent. The Vaude was £200 several year ago so was good value, less than 2kg dry.

[foxyrider]

Vaude Taurus Ultralight does the same, see my tent viewtopic.php?f=42&t=57568&start=495
Scroll up and see the same model pitched in sun!
Not a big issue, more of an issue is the dew on the inside after a dry night. The fly and inner stay together so the inner gets soaked. Plus I have to carry extra weight. So I might look at a tent where they are taken apart when I next buy a tent. The Vaude was £200 several year ago so was good value, less than 2kg dry.

That's my other tent, a 2002 example - never had any issues with that. You can of course separate the inner from the outer if you want but IME it's more trouble than letting it dry at the next stop. Even put away wet the inner on both my Vaude's will dry quite quickly even if it's still raining outside.

[Psamathe]

Vaude Taurus Ultralight does the same, see my tent viewtopic.php?f=42&t=57568&start=495
Scroll up and see the same model pitched in sun!
Not a big issue, more of an issue is the dew on the inside after a dry night. The fly and inner stay together so the inner gets soaked. Plus I have to carry extra weight. So I might look at a tent where they are taken apart when I next buy a tent. The Vaude was £200 several year ago so was good value, less than 2kg dry.

That's my other tent, a 2002 example - never had any issues with that. You can of course separate the inner from the outer if you want but IME it's more trouble than letting it dry at the next stop. Even put away wet the inner on both my Vaude's will dry quite quickly even if it's still raining outside.

I found that with my Nordisk Halland II (the tent prompting me to start the thread). Normally inner and fly remain together. But as the flapping around got worse and the weather got worse I was facing arriving at a campsite with weather where the inside would not have dried out. Sunny weather and warm breeze and it dries in a few minutes but misty drizzle and you end-up with a sopping wet inner all night. So to avoid that, with such weather I took to separating the inner and packing it and them the fly (keeping them separate). How successful that was depended on how wet the inner had got overnight.

Ian

[hamster]

Nylon does it, full stop. You get the same thing with wet nylon rope. It's a basic property of the material that it stretches when wet.

[pjclinch]

Nylon does it, full stop. You get the same thing with wet nylon rope. It's a basic property of the material that it stretches when wet.

This. (It's not just silicone coated nylon, it's nylon.)

Polysester is less prone to this... but typically weighs more at the same strength (better UV performance as well though). Cuben fibre pretty much doesn't stretch and is lighter too, but costs a fortune, and actually some stretch makes pitching on uneven ground rather easier.

Pete.

[PH]

Nylon does it, full stop. You get the same thing with wet nylon rope. It's a basic property of the material that it stretches when wet.

That's interesting and wasn't something I knew. I did a little research and TN have this to say in the manual, which goes along with my experience.

During prolonged heavy rain the nylon fibres in the flysheet
fabric will absorb some of the water and expand. This will give
the flysheet a wet appearance in places – wetting out – and
may cause it to sag slightly. If this occurs it is important to retension
the flysheet by adjusting the pole feet from the outer
most to inner most eyelet on the webbing tapes. After the rain
has stopped and the flysheet starts to dry out, the nylon fibres
will contract. It is important to loosen the flysheet tension by re
adjusting the pole feet to the outer most eyelets on the
webbing tapes. If the tension is not released, in some cases,
the force of the contracting flysheet can damage the poles.
Cleaning and reproofing the outer surface with Terra Nova
Tent Cleaner and Tent re-proofer can help stop water from
building up in the fibres and causing the effects of wetting out.

Also found this from another perspective, which gives an explanation why the best polyesters are not being used
http://thetentlab.com/MoonLightTents/PolyNyl.html

[pjclinch]

Also found this from another perspective, which gives an explanation why the best polyesters are not being used
http://thetentlab.com/MoonLightTents/PolyNyl.html

It's a bit selective, as these things are when they're justifying using one thing over another and describing other company's approaches in derogatory terms. In actuality it tends to be a swings and roundabouts thing, so e.g. Saunders used to make Spacepackers with a choice of nylon or polyester fly rather than tell you which was better.

While it's certainly true that nylon sags significantly more than polyester, for the most part the problems are cosmetic. No, a saggy fly doesn't look good, but if the tent is keeping you dry (and well designed and tested examples will do, even if they are sagging) then it's a bit of a moot point. A soaking nylon fly will mean more weight to carry, but if against that a polyester fly is always heavier at the same strength to start with, unless you're practically guaranteed sogginess it's not necessarily a win.

Probably more significant is the dry performance, when that's accompanied by strong sunshine. Polyester suffers much less from UV ageing than nylon. Silicone elastomer coats filter out quite a bit of UV and that helps, but you can put silicone coats on polyester too... Particularly for base camping in strong sun for long periods, polyester has a lot going for it.

For general purpose tents I think you're best off looking at the whole package, rather than sweating on individual points like fabric choice. The devil often is in the details, but it's the combination of details. I don't like PU coats, for example (they heat-age and weaken the base fabric), but we have a couple of MSR tents that use PU inner coats because the whole package did what we wanted at a good price.

Pete.

[Gattonero]

Since the problem is more severe with the ultralight materials, that is one good reason for me to avoid going the ultralight route (just lightweight will do for me, also because it is less fragile and longer lasting). Addtionally, I have noticed that not surprisingly the ultralight versions of some tents have fewer pegs and staking points, so tensioning those tents nicely is harder.

I'm just wondering if ultra lightweight is a false economy (in weight terms).

Like everything, is horses for courses!
Nylon is usually stronger than fabrics or similar weight and can be made very waterproof, while Polyester usually deals better with UV and does not stretch when wet although has less tear strength.
Other materials like Cotton or Polycotton may not stretch but to resist tear they have to be made substantially heavier and thicker, which translates in a pack size (and weight) that can be double of a comparable sized tent made out of Nylon or Polyester. Cotton will also take ages to dry, while Polyester seems to dry very fast.

A good design of a tent will have the ability for a quick re-tensioning, i.e. clever people like Henry Shires with his Tarptent designs would often have a tensioner device that allows you to tension the whole fly with one guyline tensioner positioned inside the tent. Other designs, like "pyramid" or "tipi" or "A-frame" can be tensioned by simply moving the center pole more vertical.


Also less stakes means more chances of safe pitching in hard soil: good luck in staking 12 or more pegs in rocky and hard ground!
Indeed, with less pegs means that re-tensioning the fly often needs to act on two guylines/adjusters only