4 season sleeping bag

[robing]

I picked up the Vango bag today £55 from Go Outdoors. I'll give it a whirl this week camping in the garden.
It's supposed to turn colder later, so will be good to see how warm it is. I'm only about 5'9 or 10 so should be fine for size.

[philsknees]

Hope your purchase works for you. Winter camping is a bit addictive for me, there being a certain satisfaction in being dry & warm in any conditions.
+1 for having a cheap square foot synthetic overbag along if you're car camping in uncertain weather, particularly in a small nylon tent which is almost certain to be liable to condensation. Not practical, of course when on foot or cycling but in those circumstances a light breathable water-resistant bivi bag can protect your main sleeping bag from drips as well as adding a little warmth.
One other more delicate issue surrounding winter camping particularly if, like me, you're of an age to know better & also sleep unclothed, is the inevitable overnight call(s) of nature in bad weather.
While I wouldn't for the world have missed experiencing some of those still, brightly moonlit, heavily frosted nights with snow on the ground, it's more often a harsh experience to emerge from a warm bag/tent into the usual cold, windy, rain or wet snow winter conditions. After much experimentation I've found one of these the most practical solution:
https://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/hydr ... 4-115.html
Expensive but well worth it. I've found it durable, packable & very user-friendly with a zip bag. Choose the size based on your expected output !

[robing]

I just use one of my water bottles. It's got quite a wide neck
The bag certainly seems warm but first impressions are it seems a bit narrow for my shoulders and I'm not that big. I'll try it out and see, they do 30 day returns.

[pjclinch]

+1 for having a cheap square foot synthetic overbag along if you're car camping in uncertain weather, particularly in a small nylon tent which is almost certain to be liable to condensation. Not practical, of course when on foot or cycling but in those circumstances a light breathable water-resistant bivi bag can protect your main sleeping bag from drips as well as adding a little warmth.

Yes, but...
The "but" being that even plain Pertex as typically used on bag shells will shed the odd drip quite easily, and a lot of bags are given a DWR coat to help them shed odd drops even better. And if you get in to a bivvi bag you're actually creating a potential condensation problem. "Breathable" is all very well, but a breathable waterproof fabric requires a certain amount of vapour pressure to push vapour through, and if your sleeping bag is an effective insulator (which it should be, especially a winter one) there won't be much heat gradient to create that vapour pressure. In other words, you're more likely to get wet from condensation inside a bivvi bag than in a tent.

Pete.

[robing]

I guess you will get more condensation in your tent in winter? Because the air holds less moisture when it's colder, the same reason your washing won't dry.

[philsknees]

Personally I hate narrow bags despite their supposed superior performance. I just can't get on with the restricted feeling & of course sleeping "arm(s) out" isn't an option in winter. If you've noticed it right away the chances are the constriction will become an issue for you later on. Winter nights are long & give plenty of opportunity to reflect on any discomfort - I'd think about changing it or possibly looking at buying a zip-in wedge if the zips are compatible.
In my experience the condensation problem is worse in winter whatever you do, partly as a result of your comment on the capacity of cold air to hold vapour but equally due to much colder condensation surfaces & also most people's tendency to shut down ventilation in an attempt to keep warm. I prefer to maintain a through-flow of cold air rather than trap warm air inside the tent where moist air from your lungs will condense. The downside of increased venting is that you will need a warmer bag as a consequence of your attempts to stay drier.
Re the P-bottle issue: Yep any bottle will do - well marked to identify it(!) but the combination of the wide Nalgene-type neck with a folding bottle gives a much better capacity for a very small packing size. That may not be an issue for you but if I used 2 rigid bottles for "fluids in & out" I'd be hard put to fit my winter backpacking gear(including 2 man tent) into a 37 litre rucksack as I do at present. I think most bikepackers would have similar priorities though I'm a 4 pannier man when cycle touring.

PJ's comments on pertex & proofing of sleeping bags are noted & I have down bags with both outer finishes but find that they are OK in the short term but eventually suffer from dampness after a few nights. In those circumstances I find a light, breathable overbag improves matters, albeit not providing the perfect solution.

[pjclinch]

PJ's comments on pertex & proofing of sleeping bags are noted & I have down bags with both outer finishes but find that they are OK in the short term but eventually suffer from dampness after a few nights. In those circumstances I find a light, breathable overbag improves matters, albeit not providing the perfect solution.

Fairy Nuff: I'd drawn a distinction between an overbag and a bivvi, taking a bivvi as meaning formally waterproof which, even when "breathable", is distinctly less breathable than a simple overbag.

Something like this would fit the bill. Not only better for the job than a "proper" bivvi, but typically lighter too.

Pete.

[robing]

Personally I hate narrow bags despite their supposed superior performance. I just can't get on with the restricted feeling & of course sleeping "arm(s) out" isn't an option in winter. If you've noticed it right away the chances are the constriction will become an issue for you later on. Winter nights are long & give plenty of opportunity to reflect on any discomfort - I'd think about changing it or possibly looking at buying a zip-in wedge if the zips are compatible.

You could be right. Looking at it - the outer dimensions appear very similar to my other Robens bag, but that is down so much thinner walls. This Vango bag is synthetic and much thicker so less room inside. I'll give it a go but if I don't get on with it I will return it. Also the zip seemed very stiff to move and kept catching, something else that may drive me up the wall while using the bag. The next few nights look good ones to try - it's going to get pretty cold but should stay dry.

Shame though as feels very warm and there didn't seem to be much else in this price bracket.

[pjclinch]

Personally I hate narrow bags despite their supposed superior performance.

Indeed. If you aren't comfortable then you won't sleep well. So a test-lie is, IMHO, a very good idea (if you can't do it in the shop be prepared to send it back like robing is thinking). And it's not just "can you lie there and physically fit in", it's stuff like can you scratch an itchy foot without being a contortionist. "Performance" of a sleeping bag is about how well you sleep, and there's more to that than its raw insulation value.

I don't know what brands might map to narrow/wide/whatever. I do know that I (5'8"/1.73m, up to 80 Kg through the years) fit in older ME "Extreme" series bags (90s Dewline, Lightline, Iceline) very comfortably. One of the tricks with those is a very lightly elasticated inner to eliminate free air space and improve loft without constricting the sleeper. I've never noticed it impairing my comfort in any way compared to other bags I've used over the years so I guess it works.

Pete.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Size is important like I said post.
The only way I can sleep in this bag Mr lie on my side one arm straight one across you.
And extender or Wedge Will do the trick.
Lying on your back means bag will be tight across the chest.

I am thinking maybe about making one Up for my existing Vango bags.
Does anyone know where you can buy one for vangos?

That link to a lightweight bag, it’s expensive for a very limited performance.
I have been looking for a BivvyFor some time that is wide enough for you and some kit, most baby bags fit just so on their closeness, so condensation is inevitable.

[pjclinch]

That link to a lightweight bag, it’s expensive for a very limited performance.

It's PHD so it's from a small UK based specialist making low volumes and that will put the price up, but I just put it there as a "this is the sort of thing I mean" rather than "you should go and get this". As for "limited performance", the trick is the right level for what you want rather than "this has a bigger number". And if fully waterproof is pointless because you're in a tent, and an increase in waterproofness reduces breathability which means more of a condensation problem, then better waterproof performance is actually a bad thing. Similarly, a much bigger bag that will accept kit will weigh more and bulk more, and because there's more space inside on a cold night for vapour to condense before it's poked through the wall you'll get more condensation.

Water resistant (but not proof) overbags are a bit of a niche item, really useful if you're sleeping in a dirty indoors (say, a mud floored hut) or a damp but not really wet place so not many people can justify them. But for the people that can, the performance is a good match to what they want and need.

Pete.

[philsknees]

Yep, I meant to refer to an overbag rather than a full blown bivi bag. As well as PJ Clinch's PHD overbag, Rab do the Survival Zone & the Survival Zone Lite. The Lite is comparable in weight & cost to the PHD one while the basic Survival Zone is heavier, at just over half the price. Both Rab models can perform as an overbag though, at a pinch, I'd use the cheaper one outdoors in light rain.

Now to the OP's dilemma: If you find the Vango bag too restrictive, I'd return it. I'm pretty certain it won't be warm enough for stand alone use in most winter conditions and there's clearly no room in it for an additional internal insulation layer. You already have a down summer-weight bag, ideal for use inside a synthetic outer bag, which would also protect the down from condensation. You need either an expander wedge for the Vango or a different, wider, synthetic bag altogether. If you really want to keep the Vango bag & not go to much extra expense, have a look here:
https://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/accesso ... nel-summer
Though be prepared to return it if the zips aren't compatible.
Alternatively, a range of wider synthetic outer bags, using an inbuilt expansion panel, can be found here (Softie Expansion):
https://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/catalog ... &q=softie+

If you shop around the internet both the expander panel & the Expansion bags are available at a much discounted price - only a little more than the Vango + panel will cost you. While I've no personal experience of Snugpak bags, I'm sure someone on here can comment how they perform. Remember you need a bag solely to use in combination with the down inner so you won't need one with a particularly high temperature rating.

[robing]

I used the new winter bag for two nights and it was great, very impressed! The doubts I had about the size proved to be unfounded.
It was perfectly comfortable and snug without being restrictive. The zipper worked fine. It was super warm and toasty!
The first night was only about 6-8C and it was a bit too warm. The second night, last night was close to freezing and it was perfect.
It still felt pretty warm especially with the hood up, so I think it would be good for several degrees below freezing.
For £55 it was a bargain - and has now gone up to £65. It is bulky but as I said I'm not bothered about size for this bag.
My only gripe was it seemed difficult to get the mummy hood really snug and tight.

Looking forward to doing some winter camping!

[Sweep]

One other more delicate issue surrounding winter camping particularly if, like me, you're of an age to know better & also sleep unclothed, is the inevitable overnight call(s) of nature in bad weather.
https://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/hydr ... 4-115.html
Expensive but well worth it. I've found it durable, packable & very user-friendly with a zip bag. Choose the size based on your expected output !

"Wide-mouth accepts ice cubes"

??

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Does what it says on the label.............