Gas stove or petrol?

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Jdsk
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Re: Buying and Carrying Meths/Alcohol for stoves

Postby Jdsk » 13 Jan 2021, 10:51am

Brucey wrote:
KTHSullivan wrote:Meths will eat alloy bottles long term.

this is an excellent point and one I hadn't borne in mind previously. I guess if you are using such a bottle with meths for a few days and subsequently store it dry it is likely to be OK, but it would be easy to accidentally leave it for longer than this, especially if you were not aware of the hazard.

When carrying fuel bottles it is a risk vs consequence game; it is not that they are likely to leak inside a bag, it is more that if they do (and it only takes a tiny piece grit in a seal to provoke a leak and plastic bottles can split of course ) then the result is a lot of quite needless misery. Of the likely liquid stove fuels none of them (with the possible exception of some burning alcohols) are likely to simply evaporate and leave no stains or smells behind. Clothing is bad enough when contaminated with fuel but the prospect of fuel contaminating foodstuffs hardly bears thinking about.

As above I carry the meths in a SIGG fuel bottle in a cage below the down tube.

I know about the effect of ethanol on rubber and some other polymers but I'm surprised about it (or some other component of meths) attacking "alloy". What's the evidence for this, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

nsew
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby nsew » 13 Jan 2021, 12:25pm

All the evidence appears to be anecdotal from those who have left a quantity in an aluminium fuel container for a period of time. Nalgene medical bottles are virtually indestructible, I used to carry a 250ml ‘overflow’ bottle before the addition of a wood stove. Think I’ll stick with the Trangia 500ml to save weight, bulk and cost of a new cage. The dispenser and seal are faultless though I’ve busted one of the spouts off (with no adverse effect).

Metal mug
25-04-2012, 07:56 PM
“I have been useing a dedicated MSR fuel bottle, for the last couple of years it has just sat on a shelf but after reading this thred I thought I had better check the contents, to my suprise the top was welded tight - took about 10mins to remove after striping the threds, the meths had no colour, the interior of the bottle was black then after pouring the meths into a clear whisky bottle ( co special blend EMPTY son's not mine ) loads of particals and what looked like frog spawn settle'd to the bottom!! after straining the meths through a funel stufed with bog role, I was left with about 300ml of crystlal clear meths which I have just checked in my trangia burner - seams o/k so it's plastic bootles for meths from now on.”

nsew
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby nsew » 13 Jan 2021, 12:37pm

Also read that the 1L Trangia fits the Profile Sigg cage if that’s what you have.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Jan 2021, 12:50pm

nsew wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:I have tried a Monkii in the same position, not for fuel but for a tool tub. In the end I went back to a standard bottle cage there, partly because it was easier to remove without clouting the mudguard. It depends on the bike, obviously, but on my tourer a 1l bottle in that position would be overly ambitious whatever the fastening method. However, I do use a Monkii with a 1.5l bottle (of water) on the upper side of the down tube.


The 1L Trangia fuel bottle is surprisingly not that much larger but would definitely need a lower cage position on my bike. The Bike Buddy MkII allows the movement down the tube. Turning the front wheel a few inches makes accessing that cage position easier. Obvious but I think I recall figuring that out a few months into a trip. Ha!

1 litre
Dimensions: 29cm x 8cm

0.5 Litre
Dimensions: 23.6cm x 6.3cm

I have 24cm from the base of the bottle cage to the back of the mudguard! Can't even fit a standard water bottle in there (not that I think it would be a sensible place for one).

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nick12
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby nick12 » 13 Jan 2021, 7:21pm

I didn't know that storing meths in a msr fuel bottle could damage the bottle I have been using a 11 FL Oz (325ml) for several years now.. as a rule I decant the meths when I get home but on occasions when I know I will be out again at the weekend I don't bother. Just had a look inside the bottle and there are several black patches which could be due to the meths. It is only used with meths. I have a separate msr bottle for the msr dragonfly stove which is clean and shiny inside even though it's at least 15 years old and only had Coleman's fuel in it which I decant after use. That msr bottle is 22 FL Oz (650 ml ) and is a snug fit in a standard bottle cage. I noticed on the msr link which Andrew s posted the new bottles are 20 FL Oz which I reckon would be a perfect fit in a standard bottle cage. I often carry meths in the plastic bottle it comes in when I'm away for more than a few days inside my panniers but not in my food pannier. I also like to have a small squeezy bottle which I use to fill my stove. The 100ml hand sanitizer bottles are great for this makes it easy to fill the stove with small amounts with less chance of spilling the fuel.

nsew
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby nsew » 13 Jan 2021, 10:47pm

Not my subject area but there’s obviously a chemical reaction happening with aluminium, could that be due to the methanol, ethanol or both? I know methanol levels differ depending on manufacturer/ country and that stuff is straight up lethal. Usually somewhere around the 10% mark. So what happens when you breath those fumes? From my own experience I stopped using the burner from inside my tent (with the burner outside) due to ferocious headaches afterward that lasted for the remainder of the day. Not after the first time it happened but the second time was confirmation. Those headaches never materialised again. Something to bear in mind.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Jan 2021, 11:35pm

I'm pretty sure that methylated spirits don't contain methanol nowadays, at least in Europe (continent of, including UK), and haven't for several decades. But they do contain plenty of other stuff which would give you a headache.

Jdsk
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby Jdsk » 13 Jan 2021, 11:44pm

Methylated spirit in the UK typically contains 3 to 10% methanol, eg:
https://www.chemicals.co.uk/blog/what-are-methylated-spirits
https://www.fishersci.co.uk/chemicalProductData_uk/wercs?itemCode=M/4450/15

...

I know about reactions of ethanol and methanol with aluminium but I'm not at all sure that they're taking place in the conditions in my fuel bottle, especially the concentrations of the alcohols, the temperature, the pressure, and the presence of water.

...

I don't know what in the fumes of combustion would be particularly nasty. With poor combustion both ethanol and methanol can generate carbon monoxide.

...

Any more experiences with alloy bottles, please? Or sources of information?

Thanks

Jonathan

hamster
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby hamster » 14 Jan 2021, 8:49am

I've a Sigg over 30 years old with meths for my Trangia - seems fine, it's the old uncoated alu type.
By comparison, I bought a Sigg water bottle (the blue coated type) which did corrode through. Puzzling.

Personally I only use metal bottles for fuel. Plastic ones can cause sparks, depending on material and special conductive additives are necessary I understand. I'm not sure if Nalgene bottles are fuel-safe.

hufty
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby hufty » 14 Jan 2021, 11:40am

Jdsk wrote:With poor combustion both ethanol and methanol can generate carbon monoxide.

Surely any carbon-based fuel can produce carbon monoxide if it's not burning properly. Yellow flames = not enough air for complete combustion.
Please do not use this post in Cycle magazine

Jdsk
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby Jdsk » 14 Jan 2021, 11:49am

hufty wrote:
Jdsk wrote:With poor combustion both ethanol and methanol can generate carbon monoxide.

Surely any carbon-based fuel can produce carbon monoxide if it's not burning properly.

Yes...

Shirley

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 14 Jan 2021, 12:09pm

...and a headache!

nsew
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby nsew » 14 Jan 2021, 2:17pm

hamster wrote:I've a Sigg over 30 years old with meths for my Trangia - seems fine, it's the old uncoated alu type.
By comparison, I bought a Sigg water bottle (the blue coated type) which did corrode through. Puzzling.

Personally I only use metal bottles for fuel. Plastic ones can cause sparks, depending on material and special conductive additives are necessary I understand. I'm not sure if Nalgene bottles are fuel-safe.


Meths is stored and shipped in plastic containers. To be clear i’m not recommending Nalgene medical bottles for anything other than methylated spirit.

hamster
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby hamster » 14 Jan 2021, 4:47pm

I suspect that the meths bottles are specially constructed to avoid the potential for sparking - but perhaps it's not considered serious risk in such small quantities. Certainly petrol cans are different.

bretonbikes
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Re: Gas stove or petrol?

Postby bretonbikes » 15 Jan 2021, 11:33am

From our experience meths (at least the French stuff) will corrode the inside of unlined sigg bottles. We used to use them exclusively for our hire fleet of Trangias (which incidentally last forever) but of late simply use the plastic bottle the stuff comes in from the shop. Tough, and usually have a nozzle/hole so no chance of flame back.
35 years of cycletouring, 30 years of running cycling holidays, 5 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...