How light can you go?

[KTHSullivan]

The best "lightweight" tent I ever owned was a Macpac "olympus", bought in New Zealand and somewhat different to the present incarnation. It eventually died due to UV degradation of the fly . The tent had a serious and substantial deep bucket type groundsheet that was significantly heavier than that used on modern lightweight tents. Never leaked and no pole breakages despite being subject to horrendous conditions in the High Alps, Cairngorms and Patagonia. Worst tent I ever owned was a Big Agnes "Emerald Mountain" lasted 2 seasons with incredibly light use. Bought in the USA, the whole thing was a disaster, the predominantly mesh inner looked like laddered ladies stockings after the first outing in the Lakes, the fly sheet was so "crisp" that during the lightest of breezes it was reminiscent of a noisy crisp packet. The seam sealing delaminated after 18 months even though the tent was dried and stored loose after every (not many) outings. I approached Big Agnes directly with my concerns, jumping through their extensive hoops by way of a warranty claim to no eventual avail. It is now a play tent for my granddaughter. which in retrospect should have been it's primary use.

[nsew]

A couple of YT screenshots from a Big Agnes ultralight user. The tarp in the photo is the new flysheet. The poles had snapped in a couple of places in a later video.

[nsew]

For reference the Hilleberg Akto up-thread compared with the (Nordisk / Vaude ) and hydrostatic head

flysheet 30d (10 / 20 ) 5000 (2000 / 3000)
inner 30d (15 / 15 )
floor 70d (20 / 30 ) 15000 (8000 / 3000)

[foxyrider]

There are clearly different models of Power Lizard - mine is the SUL for which the the materials spec is as follows:

Outer tent: 100% Polyamide, 20D Ripstop both sided silicone coated to HH 3000mm
Inner tent: 100% Polyamide 15D Micro Ripstop
Tent floor: 100% Poylamide 40D 240T Ripstop laminated to HH 10,000mm

Never had any wet through the floor or damage to it despite some very wet pitches on occasion and more than a few stony/twiggy pitches.

Whilst we are on the subject of 'how light', before all this bike packing malarky started, i made a pair of panniers from a couple of 15l dry bags which used a full set of Ortlieb fixings, the weight was @ 500g the pair. There were several issues however, despite being shaped, the 40d nylon didn't hold any shape and whilst they would keep a light shower out, it didn't take much for water to get inside - i used them for clothing which i double bag anyway so it wasn't the biggest issue but i use it as an example of going too light to maintain the required performance.

[Pendodave]

The OP kitlist is my pretty decent, and similar to my own backpacking/short cycle trip list.

Regarding tents, i have a macpac microlight from a similar vintage to the Osprey referenced above. The groundsheet is like shoe leather! Sadly, it is not particularly light by contemporary standards (1.8kg) while still slightly on the micro side... it's on my list of things to upgrade, but would require a few hundred quid, so not for a bit.

I'm of the inclination that many of the specs we agonise over are largely superfluous for most of my cycle based camping, even when doing slightly adventurous off road stuff. More important is sufficient vertical space (im 6.1) to sit up, and straightforward pitching in a small footprint for sneaky out of the way, not on a site, bikepacking. Compact packing and short poles are also handy.

[Thehairs1970]

The OP kitlist is my pretty decent, and similar to my own backpacking/short cycle trip list.

Regarding tents, i have a macpac microlight from a similar vintage to the Osprey referenced above. The groundsheet is like shoe leather! Sadly, it is not particularly light by contemporary standards (1.8kg) while still slightly on the micro side... it's on my list of things to upgrade, but would require a few hundred quid, so not for a bit..

I was thinking of a microlight when reading the post. What a tent! We, my wife and I, had a secondhand one that we took around the world on a backpacking trip. We camped A LOT particularly in NZ but also in Thailand, Hawaii and Canada. It was small but we managed. We spent three months in it every night and built an extension from pallets and an old tarp. Loved it but all that UV killed it in the end. Still miss it.

[nsew]

There are clearly different models of Power Lizard - mine is the SUL for which the the materials spec is as follows:

Outer tent: 100% Polyamide, 20D Ripstop both sided silicone coated to HH 3000mm
Inner tent: 100% Polyamide 15D Micro Ripstop
Tent floor: 100% Poylamide 40D 240T Ripstop laminated to HH 10,000mm

Never had any wet through the floor or damage to it despite some very wet pitches on occasion and more than a few stony/twiggy pitches.

Whilst we are on the subject of 'how light', before all this bike packing malarky started, i made a pair of panniers from a couple of 15l dry bags which used a full set of Ortlieb fixings, the weight was @ 500g the pair. There were several issues however, despite being shaped, the 40d nylon didn't hold any shape and whilst they would keep a light shower out, it didn't take much for water to get inside - i used them for clothing which i double bag anyway so it wasn't the biggest issue but i use it as an example of going too light to maintain the required performance.

I understand from the website that there is only the one current Lizard model promoted as ‘seamless’. It could be 3000mm as there’s a school of thought that only HH 1500mm is required. Which would be a radical departure and require great care of tent placement. Nikwax claim a tent left exposed for two weeks at the height of summer looses half its waterproofness and tear strength. Floor abrasion occurs on anything other than a perfectly soft flat surface. Vaude, Nordisk, MSR, Big Agnes etc manufacture their tents here https://goo.gl/maps/xT1vUySXN5QJAAeN7. Industry standard DAC poles are manufactured here https://goo.gl/maps/e5eCpmmV8BByKoQK6. I believe all the tent fabrics are manufactured in Hong Kong.

[nsew]

If I were to ever use a fashionable “lightweight” tent again (previously TN Laser) and I won’t, I would apply this before the journey https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/t ... olarproof/ and always use in conjunction with a footprint.

[leftpoole]

Not a competition
This is my weekend lightweight summer kit. I have discounted tools, spares as we all have different cycles. Food we all have variable tastes. So this is a base list for accommodation and cooking only.
Vaude Power Lizard 1.5kg
Lightweight Airbed 0.420kg
Kelty 2 season Trail logic Sleeping Bag 0.8kg
Clickstand Stove (Titanium) 0.057kg
Windscreen (Titanium) 0.020kg
Evernew Burner (Titanium) 0.045kg
Trangia 0.3 Bottle 0.095kg
Panset (Titanium) 0.362kg
1/3 Litre Meths 0.265kg
Lighter 0.020kg
Plastic mug 0.04kg
Spork 0.012kg
Wash Kit 0.4kg
4.018kg

That (!) is a pretty lightweight outfit-well done.
Rather than looking for lightest weight but for most compact burden on the bike I once camped (well twice) over the border in Hampshire. New Forest area.
I carried everything but the tent pole in the Carradice Camper saddlebag, just to prove to myself as a doubter, that it could actually be done. I did it! But can honestly say (and I was somewhat younger) that I did not try it again. OK as a one off but difficult.
If one were to carry on in the fashion then I certainly do not think it would be for a very long period. Uncomfortable because no proper clothing or cleaning. It could only be (as I did) for a couple of nights. Running out of fuel/food/deodorant/toiletries.
A far easier method is to carry a larger but still lightweight (as in expensive) tent and very expensive equipment. It may be bulkier and a little heavier (a great deal more costly) but it will certainly be more comfortable and indeed more enjoyable.
Just an opinion of my own-based on-my own experience over many of my 70 years-just so that some people are aware that I have the experience to back up my -theory!

[pjclinch]

A hydrostatic head of 1m is the basic benchmark for being considered "waterproof" from a trade descriptions point of view of keeping out the rain. Once you have enough, enough is enough.

However, figures will go down over time with use, so a greater HH figure is perhaps more an indication of ultimate longevity. It's also the case that when it comes to longevity reduction from UV damage that not all fabrics are created equal. Polyester is much better for UV stability than nylon, but a silicone coating on either will filter off a lot of UV and reduce the issue a lot. PU coats don't really help much there., and it's also the case that applying PU coats heat ages the basic fabric considerably to start with which silicone elastomers don't.

People like to compare HH figures because it's a number you can compare to another, but although a decent HH is important it's really not something to get too carried away about (a bit like boil-times for stoves: all else being equal quicker is better, but at the end of the day it's not a big deal). I find a bigger problem with very light groundsheets isn't the formal waterproofing but the way they're far more prone to condensation because they're so thin, but despite my personal reservations there's no shortage of folk who don't seem to mind and don't seem to be getting especially wet. If you can use a Laser Comp for a full winter round of the Munros (and Steve Parry did, and said he thought it was a great tent for the job) then it really can manage what most cycle tourists will need in terms of providing adequate shelter.

As usual, it's a case of finding the right balance for one's own particular needs. I prefer to carry a bit more and work harder on the journey but have a more luxurious camp, others regard the camping as just an occupational hazard of an overnighter so a lighter setup makes more sense.

Pete.

[nsew]

If HH 1000mm is all you need then why does your preferred tent use HH 15000mm? By the way, water pisses through a material with a HH of 1200mm with even the most basic test - think bag/water/twist. 1500mm is the accepted bare minimum. So I’m going with Hilleberg’s evaluation of materials suitable for the task. https://hilleberg.com/eng/about-our-ten ... g-quality/

The TN Laser Comp that I travelled with was fiddly crisp packet junk, that after 4 months would have performed equally well without a floor. Here it is approaching Helsinki, I’m embarrassed to look at it again.

[pjclinch]

If HH 1000mm is all you need then why does your preferred tent use HH 15000mm? By the way, water pisses through a material with a HH of 1200mm with even the most basic test - think bag/water/twist. 1500mm is the accepted bare minimum.

1,000mm isn't my personal opinion, it's the basis under which one is allowed to sell something as "waterproof" without the ASA having words.
(edit to add, I've just seen that the MOD reckon 800mm!)

As for my personal choice of tent, that is based on all sorts of factors but as far as hydrostatic head goes my thinking is the amount of testing Hilleberg do in rainy places means whatever they're happy with will keep me dry. Next tent will probably be a Helags 2 (as soon as they exist) but TBH I haven't looked at the HH figures because whatever they are, they'll be enough. I'm far more interested in layout and space. Taking Hille as a minimum acceptable standard is fairly ridiculous, given the number of non-Hilleberg tents with lower spec materials used quite successfully for lots of adventures.

The TN Laser Comp that I travelled with was fiddly crisp packet junk, that after 4 months would have performed equally well without a floor. Here it is approaching Helsinki, I’m embarrassed to look at it again.

I'm not keen either, but for my own reasons. Again, if it's good enough for Steve Parry to do a full winter round of the Munros with and for him to be happy with it, it's pretty hard to flag it up as an objectively bad piece of kit. Also did for Mark Beaumont's first world circumnavigation (194 days). I don't like it as the floor is thinner than I like, the porch is smaller than I like and the pole hood just shouts out "box ticking for mountain marathon rules!" (and the original's carbon pegs were really not fit for much more than a MM), but that's personal preferences, not "objectively bad".

Pete.

[PH]

The TN Laser Comp

You and pjclinch have mentioned this tent without saying what "Comp" it is.
Originally the Laser Competition, with TN being clear that for anything other than competition there were better options. Then at some point it became the "Compact" and marketed as a touring tent. I remember when I first noticed this comparing the spec and doubting it'd changed enough to move it out of the competition category.
For myself - I look at some of these weights with wonder, My usual touring kit is around 12kg, though that includes clothing. For the example in the OP, just a weekend, I reduce it by taking less. Tent, Mat, quilt, that's it, with a choice of mat depending on weather, so around 3.5 to 4kg. I do sometimes look at reducing my 2.3kg tent, but I like it enough that I've been nowhere near the buy button. Maybe I'll see something in one of these threads some day that will persuade me. I do like the idea of a week away without panniers, the reality of that conflicts with what I know it takes for me to be comfortable. I tried a bivvy bag, but that wasn't for me either, I now only take it on rides where there's a possibility of needing it but it isn't likely. Each to their own and all that, I continue to read with interest.

[pjclinch]

The TN Laser Comp

You and pjclinch have mentioned this tent without saying what "Comp" it is.
Originally the Laser Competition, with TN being clear that for anything other than competition there were better options. Then at some point it became the "Compact" and marketed as a touring tent.

Well, I've just learned something new, I only knew it as the "Competition". But like, e.g. the Kimmsac rucksack which was originally designed for mountain marathons finding its way in to general backpacking use, and trainers with gnarly soles getting used for stuff where one "needed" stiff heavy boots, I'd assumed people just decided to see what they could do with it (at least having swapped out the Comedy Pegs....) in more extended use.

For myself - I look at some of these weights with wonder, My usual touring kit is around 12kg, though that includes clothing. For the example in the OP, just a weekend, I reduce it by taking less. Tent, Mat, quilt, that's it, with a choice of mat depending on weather, so around 3.5 to 4kg. I do sometimes look at reducing my 2.3kg tent, but I like it enough that I've been nowhere near the buy button. Maybe I'll see something in one of these threads some day that will persuade me. I do like the idea of a week away without panniers, the reality of that conflicts with what I know it takes for me to be comfortable. I tried a bivvy bag, but that wasn't for me either, I now only take it on rides where there's a possibility of needing it but it isn't likely. Each to their own and all that, I continue to read with interest.

This is pretty much in line with my MO. Much like shaving weight off the bike I can see the point of doing it and I can see why people prefer it that way, but it's not what necessarily works for me.

[willem jongman]

I am in my late sixites, and still like to ride in the hills and mountains. So I try to keep luggage weight down without giving up too much comfort, and that is not easy, of course. Crucial in my view is to keep volume down. This has allowed me to abandon the classic heavy Ortlieb backrollers for trips in decent weather: I now use a pair of Altura ARC 15 panniers, at 1050 grams for 33 liters. The tent goes on top of the rear rack. Unless I need a warmer sleeping bag and warmer clothing, this will do fine for summer trips and short trips in the shoulder seasons. My two solo tents are an MSR Zoic1 at 1.8 kg including footprint for hot summer use and a Helsport Ringstind Superlight 2 at 1.75 kg with footprint. Both are roomy enough for solo use, but not generously so, whatever the adverts and reviews may say. Personally I would not want to use anything smaller, and I think a few hundred grams extra for more tent space is weight well spent. As a sleeping bag in the summer I have a 600 gram PhD Minim with some ultralight outer fabric. That fabric is pretty fragile, so if I had to do it again I would go for a marginally heavier one (and have a bit more down filling to stretch the bag's range a bit). Originally I used an Exped Ultralight mattress but that delaminated after a few seasons, so I have now moved to a heavier Neoair, and for the colder season a Neoair All Season. I also find these Neoairs more comfortable. On my longer tours I use a Trangia 27 stove to cook real food from fresh products, but for weekend trips I am now considering a Caldera Cone. Realistically, that will only boil water, but that is fine for a freeze dried meal on a weekend trip, and for tea and coffee. I have similarly reduced my clothing to a minimum. If there is a chance that the weather will be cold I take my 150 gram PHD down vest, which is far smaller to pack than a fleece vest, and can extend the range of my sleeping bag. All in all my total weight including some food and two spare tubes is between 12-15 kg, depending on the conditions. The most promising remaining weight reductions opportunities are probably in the clothing, and in many little things like my bike tool, the spare battery pack for my phone, etc.