new winter sleeping bag

[MarcusT]

I tried a number of bags. I was looking for a wide comfortable bag. The chinese clones were much too narrow. Most european brands were just a little too tight. I ended up looking at american bags for their wide girth. I ended up with a Kelty Cosmic (L). A good three season bag at a reasonable price. I am quite satisfied with it

Thanks' these look good, is there much room for feet? pictures can be deceiving but they do look a wee bit tight at the bottom

I have the long, I am 6' 1", 15 stone and size 10 feet. I have plenty of room

[nsew]

The £42 “3 season” Millets bag purchased a couple of years ago didn’t work out then?

How lovely of you to go through my post history to find my sleeping bag thoughts, thank you for reminding me how good the £42 maggot has been. Mind you I wouldn't call it a winter bag which is why I'm now looking for one i can use in colder temperatures but its served me well and will continue to do so....... It would be nice to be able to afford Gucci touring and camping gear, I'm not a wealthy person and try to budget my gear accordingly.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. The two bags I have cost £225 and retail for £800+. As a sleeping system they provide -6 , +4 and +14deg comfort and weigh 940g (620/320). Both 900 fill.

THE SLEEPING SYSTEM
One way to achieve this is to view your sleeping bag as a system, just like your clothes, layering it to suit different conditions. This way you’re able to tailor your bag to its intended purpose more easily, and so build a true system that will work well for both 1 season use, right through to 4 season suffering.

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articl ... /double_up

[MarcusT]

I tried a number of bags. I was looking for a wide comfortable bag. The chinese clones were much too narrow. Most european brands were just a little too tight. I ended up looking at american bags for their wide girth. I ended up with a Kelty Cosmic (L). A good three season bag at a reasonable price. I am quite satisfied with it

Thanks' these look good, is there much room for feet? pictures can be deceiving but they do look a wee bit tight at the bottom

What did you end up going with? Would like to know with your impressions
As a side note, do not forget a well insulated sleeping pad. I am amazed how many people believe a piece of plastic sheeting/tarp is enough for cool weather camping.

[pjclinch]

Warmth ratings...

These will never be universal, because different folk feel the cold more than others.
For example, I used to have an ME Iceline, which in 7 years I got the zip done up all the way for a the whole night once, camping at south of -20C. I also lent it to a pal who used it happily on warm June nights and said it was the only bag she'd ever been warm in. I eventually sold it to another pal who just wasn't warm in "normal" bags.

Having said this, these days everyone who's serious is at least using the same test, and as long as that's the case then you know that a Brand X bag that has a -X degree Comfort Rating will be broadly as warm as a Brand Y bag claiming the same. For more details see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

My winter bag is an old ME Lightline 550 which has (IIRC) a -12C Comfort Limit. That seems fair, i used it in a snow hole where it got cold enough to freeze a bottle of squash solid overnight. But the pal I sold my Iceline too would have spent the whole night shivering.

takeway: once you've tried a bag with an EN 13537/ISO 23537 rating you'll know whether you want to go up or down from its suggestions. But if you don't know yet it's probably a fair call to assume they're realistic unless you know you need piles more/less bedding than everyone else you know.

Pete.

[pjclinch]

Also, down works very poorly when compressed (i.e., when you're lying on it) so particularly for down bags you typically need a decent insulating mat underneath. Without that, no matter how much down of whatever quality, you'll probably get cold underneath on anything like a frosty night. Mats should come with an "R Value", the bigger that is the better the insulation. For a winter bag, get a winter mat.

Next tip, as down performance degrades with dirt, and down pits are a PITA to wash and an utter PITA to dry, keep it clean! This, for me, is the main point of using a liner. PJs work too, but take up a lot more packing space and you need to consider hands, feet and head. You can use a thicker liner (and/or combine with warmer PJs) for more warmth.

Pete.
[edited to remove typo, "winter" rather than "winder"]

[horizon]

Next tip, as down performance degrades with dirt, and down pits are a PITA to wash and an utter PITA to dry, keep it clean! This, for me, is the main point of using a liner. PJs work too, but take up a lot more packing space and you need to consider hands, feet and head. You can use a thicker liner (and/or combine with warmer PJs) for more warmth.

Pete.

I have a Rab liner for my Rab sleeping bag - why not do it properly? The liner stops at the entrance of the bag but doesn't include the hood. To me it's inexplicable (except that I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually uses them themselves).

I've also read (sorry no links) that a liner will not increase the warmth of a bag and a liner will increase the warmth of a bag. I'm happy with the increase in warmth and cleanliness but liners do get twisted - maybe a loop to tie them in? I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually . . . .

[pjclinch]

I have a Rab liner for my Rab sleeping bag - why not do it properly? The liner stops at the entrance of the bag but doesn't include the hood. To me it's inexplicable (except that I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually uses them themselves).

I've also read (sorry no links) that a liner will not increase the warmth of a bag and a liner will increase the warmth of a bag. I'm happy with the increase in warmth and cleanliness but liners do get twisted - maybe a loop to tie them in? I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually . . . .

The hood thing seems odd, the Rab liner I've got has one. We currently use Jag Bags ones, see https://www.terrevistatrails.com/, have been very happy with them (the Rab one was their lightest, being very fine silk started suffering around the seams after a while)

Will they/won't they increase the warmth of the bag? Well, that depends on the liner, but typically they'll make some difference, on the order of PJs made of the same stuff. So if you've got a really fine liner with practically no space to trap air it won't make much difference, but if you have, say, a 200 gsm merino wool liner it will make quite a big difference.

I don't seem to suffer much from liners twisting, which is a pleasant surprise as I'm a fidgety sleeper and suffered terribly with sheet bags in YHAs. I suspect mummy-ones work better in this regard as there's less spare material to get left behind when I move?

Pete.

[nsew]

Anyone who is serious about sleeping outdoors will know the amount and quality of down they need to sleep comfortable at any given temperature / environment. They’ll also know how much insulation they need from below and the effects of getting into a bag cold/warm, tired/energised, fed/hungry. They’ll also know how to layer and vent effectively and the varying effect of site selection.

Is it possible to explain all that to someone who asks “which bag should I get?” No, because they have to live outdoors and hopefully learn from the experience. They can only start with a bag that claims to be comfortable at x temperature, pair it with whatever equipment they have and take it from there.

[Bonefishblues]

I have a Rab liner for my Rab sleeping bag - why not do it properly? The liner stops at the entrance of the bag but doesn't include the hood. To me it's inexplicable (except that I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually uses them themselves).

I've also read (sorry no links) that a liner will not increase the warmth of a bag and a liner will increase the warmth of a bag. I'm happy with the increase in warmth and cleanliness but liners do get twisted - maybe a loop to tie them in? I am convinced that no-one who designs products actually . . . .

The hood thing seems odd, the Rab liner I've got has one. We currently use Jag Bags ones, see https://www.terrevistatrails.com/, have been very happy with them (the Rab one was their lightest, being very fine silk started suffering around the seams after a while)

Will they/won't they increase the warmth of the bag? Well, that depends on the liner, but typically they'll make some difference, on the order of PJs made of the same stuff. So if you've got a really fine liner with practically no space to trap air it won't make much difference, but if you have, say, a 200 gsm merino wool liner it will make quite a big difference.

I don't seem to suffer much from liners twisting, which is a pleasant surprise as I'm a fidgety sleeper and suffered terribly with sheet bags in YHAs. I suspect mummy-ones work better in this regard as there's less spare material to get left behind when I move?

Pete.

No need for language like that you know

[nsew]

Rab produce several types. I use their silk rectangular long and don’t get caught up in it. I can get 18 - 24 months of use from one before replacing. It provides an extra pocket of air, wicks moisture effectively and adds about 1-2deg of warmth. Luxurious to the skin, can be washed and dried in minutes. Essential kit.

[horizon]

Anyone who is serious about sleeping outdoors will know the amount and quality of down they need to sleep comfortable at any given temperature / environment. They’ll also know how much insulation they need from below and the effects of getting into a bag cold/warm, tired/energised, fed/hungry. They’ll also know how to layer and vent effectively and the varying effect of site selection.

Is it possible to explain all that to someone who asks “which bag should I get?” No, because they have to live outdoors and hopefully learn from the experience. They can only start with a bag that claims to be comfortable at x temperature, pair it with whatever equipment they have and take it from there.

Totally agree. Just doing it is a great way to find out - the only way perhaps?

Regarding liners:

It seems that liners are a requisite part of a down sleeping bag. You just don't want to wash a down bag and if you do it's a once or twice in the lifetime of the bag. So why don't the manufacturers offer the bag and liner as a package: perfectly fitted, hood included, choice of fabric, loops or zips etc. They can then quote more realistic comfort figures for the bag and more honest pricing as to the total cost. In effect, a down bag without a liner isn't fit for purpose (unless you are happy to throw away a £300 item at the end of the season).

[pjclinch]

Regarding liners:

It seems that liners are a requisite part of a down sleeping bag. You just don't want to wash a down bag and if you do it's a once or twice in the lifetime of the bag. So why don't the manufacturers offer the bag and liner as a package: perfectly fitted, hood included, choice of fabric, loops or zips etc. They can then quote more realistic comfort figures for the bag and more honest pricing as to the total cost. In effect, a down bag without a liner isn't fit for purpose (unless you are happy to throw away a £300 item at the end of the season).

I would say it is a typical part of down bag using culture to have a liner, but there's plenty of folk that don't use them (notably folk that use PJs don't have such a need for them, and some folk just don't like them) and just being a part of the Standard Operating Procedure doesn't mean it's the only way to do it (for example "everyone knows" that layering is the Stock Answer to dressing for cold and damp outdoor conditions, but there's no shortage of folk yomping around in Buffalo stuff who ignore it completely and are no worse off as a result: that it's A Way doesn't mean it's The Way).

And if I have a high quality liner I'm going to use anyway, but am investing in a new bag (say, a second bag at a warmer rating or a cooler, lighter one for summer), I don't want to pay another £50 or whatever to replace something I've already got.

It won't really be "more realistic" figures for ratings because however you test them you don't know what A Random Buyer likes to wear in bed irrespective of a liner.

In other words, I think it's fixing something that ain't actually borken.

(If Brand X wants to try "buy our pit and get n% off our range of liners" as a way to boost business I don't have a problem with that, but if I prefer e.g. Rab Liners but PHD bags I don't want to be stuck with less choice than I already have or paying for something I'd sooner have replaced with something else)

Pete.

[Bmblbzzz]

I too have a Rab rectangular silk liner and it doesn't have a hood. In fact I'd never considered till now that a liner might have a hood. I previously had a synthetic one and it didn't have a hood either. Then again, I tend not to fasten the hood of the bag that tightly either, as I then end up rolling over in the bag and the hood being on my face. They never roll with my head. But your head will be a different shape from mine and so might your hood.

Regarding pjs and temperatures, the rating specification assumes long-sleeve and leg thermal baselayers as well as a mat of a certain R value.

[andrew_s]

In the same way as some break out the longs as soon as the temperature drops below 20, and others are still wearing shorts at zero, some will want a -15° rated sleeping bag at +10°, and others are happy in. +10° rated bag at -10° (see "shorts wearers in winter").

The only way to really tell where you come on the warmness scale is to buy a sleeping bag and use it. If you find that you are starting to feel cold at 10 degrees above the comfort rating, when you get your next bag, get one rated 10 degrees lower.

As a starter, use the "lower comfort limit" if you are male, and the "comfort limit" if you are female, adjusted by your longs wearing relative to other (younger) riders.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

In the same way as some break out the longs as soon as the temperature drops below 20, and others are still wearing shorts at zero, some will want a -15° rated sleeping bag at +10°, and others are happy in. +10° rated bag at -10° (see "shorts wearers in winter").

The only way to really tell where you come on the warmness scale is to buy a sleeping bag and use it. If you find that you are starting to feel cold at 10 degrees above the comfort rating, when you get your next bag, get one rated 10 degrees lower.

As a starter, use the "lower comfort limit" if you are male, and the "comfort limit" if you are female, adjusted by your longs wearing relative to other (younger) riders.

My emphasis above.
Old story- Over 40 years ago I was camping just down from the Cheviot on the Pennine Way.
tent was single skin though waterproof With a fly sheet over two sides, Conventional old-fashioned ridge tent nylon.
It was a bit cold and I put my tent up and got inside.
Rectangular metal zip 44 ounce woolwoths sleeping bag.
No Matt, so I put my jeans and jumper underneath sleeping bag to act as an insulator, wrapped my shirt around my neck prevent drafts, sleeping bag of course was baffle less.
Woke up at 2 o'clock shivering, water in billycan was frozen solid.
Needless to say I spent most of the night shivering to stay warm.
As said you need to decide yourself What sleeping bag you need for a particular comfort level.
And this normally means that you're probably likely to have more than one sleeping bag, unless you're a Fairweather camper

At home the temperature needs to be about 16.5 for me to get a decent nights sleep.
I gave up using bed quilt quite a few years ago, Fed up with draughts every time the other half turns over.
I brought a -20 twin bag system in 1980.
I still have both bags and the outer synthetic 1100 g one is what I'm using over me in bed at the moment.
(Although a mountain bag size I no longer use the twin bag system, externally of course, The bags are functional but old, twin bag system? Not a bad idea of course the bags need to be manufactured properly, eg Differentially manufactured, Inner a bag is smaller)

Of course I have several sleeping bags and I just look at the weather before I set off.

Just remember that it depends on the sleeping system you're using i.e. external coverings tent whether it's three or four season, this will have a dramatic affect on which bag you would need.

And ideally if you have a down bag you need to double bag it securely.
i'll not be a lot of good if the water gets at, if its one of the feather variety.

Liners are a bit of a talking subject and a bit controversial, if you like them and like a comfort all very well but I wouldn't rely on them in weighing up the warmth of your sleeping system.