Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

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PH
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby PH » 22 Aug 2015, 10:15am

Tangled Metal wrote:Wild Country Hoolie 3etc at about £200 & 3.65kg.


I was on a campsite last week where a couple had one in these, foul weather with 16 hours continuous rain, they were happy with the tent and only paid £170. With your criteria I'd be very tempted to give it a go at that price.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Aug 2015, 11:13pm

I think the version without extended porch are at that price. The varieties with extended porch and the 4 man are a bit more. Mostly they sell for about £20 less than rrp.

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby PH » 23 Aug 2015, 1:25am


Winkeladvokat
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Winkeladvokat » 23 Aug 2015, 6:11pm

Hi, I've been going through a very similar decision recently, and have ended up getting an Oppland 3 PU, having very seriously checked out the Hoolie 3 etc. Slightly different criteria here, this was to be a spacious "basecamp" tent, and budget was a consideration so I didn't want to pay extra for the SI model (I also already have two lighter tents for use on the move). The Hoolie 3 is a great package, and you can get very good prices on them; but the Oppland 3 is simply a better design (things like longitudinal strapping, which I like on a tunnel tent, the door design, etc.).

Have yet to use it in anger, but will report back when I do. Otherwise, having spent a lot of time in other tents (both mine and mates!) I'd almost definitely be getting at Lightwave when I get round to upgrading my other tents, these are seriously well designed and very competitively priced given their functionality. I like semi-geodesic designs too, I have a habit of camping out in rough weather :-). Their sister company, Crux, make great rucksacs, the owner/designer is a no-compromises kind of guy.

Also also, check out the Macpac Citadel, unusual design but works well. Never seen a MSR out and about so can't comment on these.

I too can't quite get my head round Hilleberg pricing, I like to spend more minimal money on kit, makes me less sensitive to using it hard!

PS The Oppland is also a little wider inside, plus you can also do the remove-the-inner-from-the-inside trick.

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pjclinch
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby pjclinch » 24 Aug 2015, 9:22am

Winkeladvokat wrote:I too can't quite get my head round Hilleberg pricing, I like to spend more minimal money on kit, makes me less sensitive to using it hard!


There appears to be a rather odd (to me, at least) subset of Hille users who treat them like eggshells because they've spent so much money on them, usually folk who absolutely won't use them without an extra footprint even camped on a croquet lawn. I always thought the point of using something you could do a circumpolar ski trek with off-the-shelf was you could take it for granted that with reasonable care it would take whatever's thrown at it, and if you're paying all that for light weight with high strength, carting an extra groundsheet about all the time is kind of missing the point.
We have footprints for ours which go when we're camping out of the boats and the weight doesn't matter, and I might take one along if there was a good chance of pitching on a boulder field, but every time?

They're built to use hard, so no need to be sensitive about it. The prices are partly a reflection of that, and partly economics 101 of charging what the market will bear.

Pete.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Tangled Metal » 24 Aug 2015, 10:18am

IIRC Macpac tents were always sold as having extra tough groundsheets so you could use them on boulder fields and on any terrain you might want or need to pitch them on. Then they sold footprints as an optional extra however they were not needed the groundsheet was one of the toughest I have ever seen and I reckon give hille ones a run for their money (at a lower price than hille are now but the same as what they were back then when I looked at the macpacs and hilles).

I have only ever used footprints on one tent, a Coleman family tent and that was only because it was part of the package deal that was actually cheaper to get than the tent and the extension without this extra (and a few other extras. In fact the total package worked out at about the RRP for just the tent on its own. Out of principle I use it because it is only a bargain if it gets used. Weird how my mind works sometimes. Any other tent I have owned has had to stand up to the terrain with only the groundsheet as it comes.

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Winkeladvokat » 24 Aug 2015, 10:24am

Pete, point taken, though by "hard" I also mean some of the less direct sources of damage, e.g. not worrying about theft, having periods e.g. due to travel arrangements, where the tent is stored wet, loans to friends. I have a Terra Nova Quaser as one of my other tents so I'm not averse to spending money on good kit. But given the option I'd almost always go for 95% of the performance for 75% of the cost. Hilleberg is 100/100, e.g. the Nallo is comparable to the Macpac Minaret, Lightwave T20 Hyper, all of which are great and robust tents (direct experience with the last two), but is the Nallo worth almost 50% more? I find that very hard to justify personally; not to say it's mispriced vs the market, if Hilleberg can sustain a business with pricing like that, credit to them, I'd just expressing my own economic trade-offs!

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby simonineaston » 24 Aug 2015, 10:57am

I must say I always enjoy the quantity and quality of posts vis-à-vis the advisability of Buying a Hilleberg - no other tent maker seems to prompt so much comment by so many people on the subject of value vs. quality! Has to be added that the folk that make up the Hilleberg Owners Group seem a pretty contented lot - but they would have to be complimentary about their investment, wouldn't they? ;-)
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

Tangled Metal
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Tangled Metal » 24 Aug 2015, 2:37pm

The more you spend the more you have to be convinced it is a good buy sometimes unless money is no object of course. I've made bad decisions but lived with them because the price was too high to fail with them. Of course I have never had a hilleberg so perhaps I have never experienced something so expensive that can still more than fulfill all promises. If that makes sense. If I did buy one I too might find out that they are really that good to deserve the price tag.

Must admit I think the WC hoolie or the various Lightwave options would suit us well. Also looked at a few nordisk tents too and they look ok.

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pjclinch
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby pjclinch » 24 Aug 2015, 3:30pm

Tangled Metal wrote:The more you spend the more you have to be convinced it is a good buy sometimes unless money is no object of course. I've made bad decisions but lived with them because the price was too high to fail with them. Of course I have never had a hilleberg so perhaps I have never experienced something so expensive that can still more than fulfill all promises. If that makes sense.


It is, of course, quite easy to buy a touring bicycle for considerably more than even a Hilleberg tent!

Pete.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby Tangled Metal » 24 Aug 2015, 3:48pm

Yes and they are something else I can not afford!! Now where is my lotto ticket?

We had a conversation about the weekly shopping bill (food) at different supermarkets. One major supermarket chain (and not even an upmarket one) is about 50% more expensive for the week's main food and detergents, etc. bill. The food is not significantly better (both places sell onions that go a bit rotten after about a week and the same with other vegetables and fruit). So the conversation was if we came into money such that we didn't have to worry any more about saving money but could get whatever we wanted, would we still shop at the expensive supermarket? The answer was no. The view we both had was they were ripping us off to maintain a status that was not deserved and a level of stock that was never needed. IIRC the stock levels between the two was about 36,000 different lines for one compared to 1,500 for the other (standard product lines only). The 36,000 lines cost more to maintain hence the expensive prices. I mean why do you need about 4 or 5 different brands of chopped tomatoes??? Perhaps a standard/premium one and a budget tin is enough.

To me there seems to be some parallels between the supermarkets and Hilleberg vs Lightwave or similar quality but cheaper than hilleberg (and perhaps a little bit less well designed than Hilleberg).

As to touring bikes, I would only pay a lot for a custom, for example, if there was some proven benefit such as I was getting back ache on tours which a custom would get rid of.

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby PH » 24 Aug 2015, 7:44pm

simonineaston wrote: no other tent maker seems to prompt so much comment by so many people on the subject of value vs. quality!

That isn't surprising is it? It's a lot more money than other tents that people regard as good quality. We're talking about a piece of material stretched over some aluminium poles, with a few bits of string attached. As with bikes once you get above the not fit for purpose ones, it's easy enough to see how one could be two or three times better than another, but harder to see how one could be seven or eight time more. I've only ever owned two lightweight camping tents, a £60 Coleman and a £220* Terra Nova, I like the design on the TN and it's half a kilo lighter, but it's hard to see how it is 4 time better, and beyond me to see how any tent could be 4 times better again.

* Sadly the current version is nearer £500

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby pjclinch » 25 Aug 2015, 9:56am

PH wrote:
simonineaston wrote: no other tent maker seems to prompt so much comment by so many people on the subject of value vs. quality!

That isn't surprising is it? It's a lot more money than other tents that people regard as good quality. We're talking about a piece of material stretched over some aluminium poles, with a few bits of string attached. As with bikes once you get above the not fit for purpose ones, it's easy enough to see how one could be two or three times better than another, but harder to see how one could be seven or eight time more. I've only ever owned two lightweight camping tents, a £60 Coleman and a £220* Terra Nova, I like the design on the TN and it's half a kilo lighter, but it's hard to see how it is 4 time better, and beyond me to see how any tent could be 4 times better again.


Value is typically perceived as bangs per buck, and that's where "it costs twice as much, is it twice as good?" comes from, but of course the reality is you're finding a point up the steepening curve of diminishing returns where you can justify the plain more bangs.

What does "4 times better" in a tent actually mean? The thing you're looking at is "does my touring experience improve with X?" (where X may be a bike, panniers, tent, stove, raincoat etc. etc.) and could it be improved more if I spent my available money some other way? Compare and contrast V brakes vs. Hydraulics. V brakes have all the stopping power you need and tend to come free with the bike, so why upgrade? You can't know whether it's worth it to you, personally, without trying both.

When we replaced my Saunders Snowcat with the Kaitum we already had the Snowcat, so it was free, so any replacement on the bangs/buck scale is immediately up against trouble! And it did the job. But my wife didn't really like it (she wanted more inner and less porch), and by the expedient of selling off a pile of collectable games I was never going to play again we had a pretty good budget. So we got the thing we qualitatively liked the most. It wasn't a case of it being a "9.3" tent at so much money giving a value of X bangs/buck against this being 1.3X bangs per buck, but we just liked it more. Once the money's gone you've got still the tent (or bike, etc.) for years.
If you regard the tent as a place to park your sleeping bag for a few hours before moving on then it probably makes sense to concentrate the budget elsewhere. But not everyone sees things from that perspective.

Pete.
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simonineaston
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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby simonineaston » 25 Aug 2015, 10:34am

PH wrote:That isn't surprising is it? It's a lot more money than other tents that people regard as good quality.
I suppose what I'm saying is this: The vast majority of tent users don't own Hillebergs - they've chosen a tent from another manufacturer. Job Done, choice made, issue dealt with - time to move on to step 2 - enjoying their choice...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

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Re: Best cycle touring tent for 3 people?

Postby pjclinch » 25 Aug 2015, 1:20pm

hamish wrote:How about lightwave?

They make tents that are supposed to compete with Hillies and have a more economical version too. For example: http://www.lightwave.uk.com/products/tents/trail?product=product3


In the process where we ended up with a Kaitum we had Tiso's let us pitch a Lightwave t2xt and a Hille Nallo GT for comparison. My impression at the end of that was that they were both good tents, the Lightwave was nicer once it was pitched but compared to the Nallo it was a PITA to pitch (the newer "Hyper" pitch series may redeem that to some degree, I don't know). But withouty worrying about relative prices, I can see why a given punter might have taken either.

As it was, I was swayed by a door and a porch at each end in the Kaitum: I simply prefer twin entrance designs, and there aren't actually that many about that ticked all my other boxes.

Pete.
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