Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Steady rider
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 28 Jan 2017, 7:27pm

Could the following be sent to the club etc
The evidence for their use is inconclusive.
Examples of research includes;

Erke and Elvik 2007 stated: "There is evidence of increased accident risk per cycling-km for cyclists wearing a helmet. In Australia and New Zealand, the increase is estimated to be around 14 per cent."

Porter et al 2016 recently detailed that for the USA, adult cyclists wearing helmets had more than twice the odds of suffering an injury than cyclists not wearing helmets, with an OR value 2.81, 95% CL =1.14, 6.94.

Robinson's submission to the Australia Senate in 2015 included details for New Zealand of an increased risk of injury per cyclist since helmet laws were introduced. It detailed between 1989 and 2012, fatal or serious injuries per million hours of cycling increased by 86% for children, 181% for teenagers and 64% for adults.

It is invalid for anyone to insist on riders wearing helmets.

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meic
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 28 Jan 2017, 7:38pm

I dont think that they would be interested, it is all trumped by an unhelmeted death on the roads and a "helmet saved my life" story from another injured cyclist.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 28 Jan 2017, 8:43pm

Still it is free to send the information, so why not, you could say you are not convinced that they provide an overall safety benefit.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Si » 29 Jan 2017, 9:09am

Repition of the age old helmet argument split out and placed in helmet sub forum. Please keep this one on topic rather than using it as an excuse for another helmet argumnet.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 29 Jan 2017, 10:46am

meic wrote:The helmet issue has now got mixed up with a "who has the power" issue.

It got mixed up with that on 26 October 2016.
meic wrote:I now have a copy of the minutes for the AGM.

Item number 13 AOB. Oct 26th 2016.
TC proposed, and JC seconded, that the wearing of helmets on club rides be compulsory. After some discussion it was carried by 13 for 2 against with 3 abstentions. The rule to be: No helmet, no ride". This to be implemented for the new year's list, the Secretary to send a circular round the membership, pointing out that ride leaders have a duty of care to those riding with them. There was no other business

Presumably the Chair of the AGM allowed that Motion to be put to the meeting. That was when it all went wrong.

Had the Chair correctly said "As a Local Member Group of Cycling UK we are bound to follow the National Policy on helmets, I cannot accept the Motion" this particular stable door could have been shut before the horse had bolted.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 29 Jan 2017, 11:04am

If you are part of a national organisation that has policy, you should follow the policy. If you disagree with the policy you should try to change the policy. The risk, evidence and research has been considered for the past 25 years or more. The best interests of cycling are served by allowing choice in helmet use. Groups have individual who may feel that cyclists should wear helmets but insisting on people wearing helmets is another step, a step too far. ps Gaz is correct.

We now have two discussions under the same heading.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2017, 7:03pm

I think it would be good to ask whether the refusal to hold the rides under CUK procedures because they believe it more hazardous, as demonstrated by this extra mistaken action, invalidates the CUK insurance and places the ride leader at personal risk if there's an incident.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby atoz » 5 Feb 2017, 11:58pm

This is a worrying development, and it does not surprise me. In practice in my area there are very few club cyclists who dont' wear helmets- or indeed cyclists who are not club riders. A lot of people seem to have swallowed the helmet propaganda hook, line and sinker. You always get the "helmet saved my life" or very comnmonly "if I hadn't been wearing a helmet...." (add incident of your choice).

Just because it's compulsory on British Cycling events it doesn't mean we have to go the same way. BC's own position is contradictory- they don't support compulsion as government policy but insist of helmet wearing for their own events.

In my experience many cyclists simply don't understand the problems with the pro helmet research- that the evidence base doesn't stack up. I think in many cases they wear helmets out of blind faith that it will help. Also many people wear them to avoid issues when you have an accident and the other party is trying to wriggle out of liability. Nothing to do with safety, everything to do with insurance companies and our legal system.

It's a bit like people popping vitamin pills- in most cases there is no evidence that doing this is much use. The only real exception to this is vitamin D, judging from the recent NICE guidance. It's bad science, and the same is true for helmets. The evidence for effectiveness simply isn't there. But it doesn't stop people from believing otherwise. So they'll wear their plastic pots on their heads, feeling virtous, and trying to make the rest of us feel bad.

The irony is that most of the work done with helmets in a crash is actually done by the foam inserts, not the shell. So people are putting their faith in bits of foam that probably cost a few pence each. To claim that cheap foam will do the job that your skull, evolved other many centuries, is designed to do is the height of delusion. If our skeletons only had the same shock absorbing properties that helmets have we would have never left the seas and learnt to walk upright. But science seems to take a back seat in all this. But it's no surprise. it's easier to submit to irrnationality as it means not having to have difficult conversations with people who swallow all the propaganda. After last summer and Brexit, I am tempted to believe that many of us will believe anything they want as long as it doesn't involve actualy thinking.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 12 Feb 2017, 9:05pm

gaz wrote:
meic wrote:The next ride is tomorrow but I still have my cold and the weather is a bit miserable.

I wish you a speedy recovery, I do not envy your position when you next seek to join a ride with the Member Group.


Well, I joined them for a ride today. I was the only rider without a helmet.
Not a word was said on the subject, except the secretary who said he was glad to see that I hadnt been put off from attending by everything that had happened.
Everybody was just like they had always been and within five minutes of my arrival I had forgotten all about it.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 12 Feb 2017, 9:55pm

meic wrote:Everybody was just like they had always been and within five minutes of my arrival I had forgotten all about it.

Glad to hear that, trust it will stay that way.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby atoz » 14 Feb 2017, 12:02am

Just reading "Mapping the Tour" borrowed from my local library- lots of people not wearing helmets in that book. They must have managed somehow. Amazing how people like Miguel Indurain won 5 Tours largely helmetless (apart from the time trials) but people in cycle clubs are frowned upon these days for not wearing them. But there again I'm biased- I actually possess Brooks saddles and shock horror, Carradice saddlebags. I'm surprised I haven't been drummed out of my local club for such terrible faux pas.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 29 Oct 2018, 12:16pm

The issue was raised again at this year's AGM (I was told, fortunately not there personally). The resurfacing now is a bit surprising as it was two years ago.
Some are really miffed at not being allowed to impose compulsory helmets and when it was made quite clear that the only way to do so was to leave CUK, they went on to discuss the option of moving over to British Cycling!
In the two years it is only myself and another much more time served member who have ever turned up without a lid. Making it an average of less than one lidless rider per ride. An awful lot of angst from others over my pretty little head, who would have thought I was that important. :lol:
May be there will be a motion for a CUKexit referendum in the club at the next AGM.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 29 Oct 2018, 3:51pm

What a shame they didn't take the opportunity to look at it after being informed they couldn't last time and a pity you weren't there to put the other case.
meic wrote:May be there will be a motion for a CUKexit referendum in the club at the next AGM.

They don't need to wait a year, I know of a couple of groups who made the decision to leave at an EGM (Extraordinary) I think it just needs the details published.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby profpointy » 29 Oct 2018, 8:13pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Lots of get outs there. CUK advocates choice but what is that choice? One choice could be to ride with the local group and obey their rules or not ride with them.

Personally I feel that if members vote to wear helmets on their rides it is the wish of the group. To go against the will of that group's members seems plain impolite or rude. If wearing a helmet when riding with that group is such an issue for you then how well are you going to fit in? Is that group really right for you? It does seem that you and the members of the group have different outlooks on helmets, what.about everything else?

Perhaps look for some other people or groups to ride with.


seems to me pretty rude to force a (local) majority view on others who do don’t share that view - especially as it is really none of their business what others wear

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 3 Nov 2018, 6:26pm

https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/v ... le-helmets

Anyone promoting helmets needs to read carefully Cycling UK policy and gain a better understanding.