Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

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mjr
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Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by mjr »

https://www.facebook.com/cyclinguknorfo ... 4804625718

Are other bits of Cycling UK supporting the bad old motoring-supremacist "be seen" victim-blaming campaign this autumn, or is this an isolated local problem?

If you haven't come across it before, "be seen" is one of a number of campaigns funded by the motoring lobby to move the responsibility from motorists to give way to other road users onto other road users to take action. Others include telling walkers to keep to footways/sidewalks, and to only cross roads at marked places — in the most extreme examples, calling other crossing "jaywalking" and criminalising it, as seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFn7MiJz_s
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Audax67
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Audax67 »

I can remember Cy Grant's "Be safe, be bright, wear something light/Wear something light at night" song from a BBC's safety film in the1960s.

People who dress in dark clothing at night are wearing their own mourning.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Mike Sales
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Mike Sales »

I have posted before that I have never seen this piece of advice to cyclists accompanied by the corresponding advice to drivers.

From para 125 of the Highway Code.
Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.
This would also help them avoid other things which might happen to be on the road, and be unlit and more solid than a cyclist.

I am still waiting.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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mjr
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by mjr »

Audax67 wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 1:50pm I can remember Cy Grant's "Be safe, be bright, wear something light/Wear something light at night" song from a BBC's safety film in the1960s.

People who dress in dark clothing at night are wearing their own mourning.
Yes, this motoring lobby campaign has been running since the 1920s at least, so the BBC being conned in the 60s would not be a surprise. It sounds like you've swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Exactly what danger is a cyclist in from wearing black but correctly lit, if drivers are competent and obey the bit of the Highway Code posted by Mike Sales? Their lights will be visible hundreds of metres before any jacket.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mattheus
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by mattheus »

mjr wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 2:34pm
Audax67 wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 1:50pm I can remember Cy Grant's "Be safe, be bright, wear something light/Wear something light at night" song from a BBC's safety film in the1960s.

People who dress in dark clothing at night are wearing their own mourning.
Yes, this motoring lobby campaign has been running since the 1920s at least, so the BBC being conned in the 60s would not be a surprise. It sounds like you've swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Exactly what danger is a cyclist in from wearing black but correctly lit, if drivers are competent and obey the bit of the Highway Code posted by Mike Sales? Their lights will be visible hundreds of metres before any jacket.
Yup.

(... and modern car lights are so bright that it's very very hard for a cyclist to hide on a public road even wearing black and leaving your lights at home! Of course a driver may not be looking in the first place, as I know from broad daylight incidents ... )
pbfenton
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by pbfenton »

Being as conspicuous as possible on a bike is just common sense!
Leave the 'stealth' wear to those with more fashion conscious than good sense
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mjr
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by mjr »

pbfenton wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 11:51am Being as conspicuous as possible on a bike is just common sense!
Leave the 'stealth' wear to those with more fashion conscious than good sense
As in, it's neither common nor sensible, like much stuff justified as "common sense"?

Why do you want to stop fashionable people from cycling? Don't you like the look of Copenhagen Cycle Chic?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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VinceLedge
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by VinceLedge »

I find it very strange how people can argue against making yourself as visible as possible when cycling.
I would rather minimise the chance of being hit than not make my visible on the basis of a principle!
Also , like most people on this forum I suspect , I drive a car as well as cycle and cyclists in dark clothing during the day and poorly or unlit at night are not always easy to see , especially when driving on dipped headlights.
Jdsk
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 2:03pmI have posted before that I have never seen this piece of advice to cyclists accompanied by the corresponding advice to drivers.
If this isn't merely whatboutery... does that mean advice to drivers about clothing or about lights on vehicles?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Jdsk »

VinceLedge wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 1:07pm I find it very strange how people can argue against making yourself as visible as possible when cycling.
I would rather minimise the chance of being hit than not make my visible on the basis of a principle!
Also , like most people on this forum I suspect , I drive a car as well as cycle and cyclists in dark clothing during the day and poorly or unlit at night are not always easy to see , especially when driving on dipped headlights.
You're not alone in supporting interventions that would reduce harm.

mjr wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 2:34pm Exactly what danger is a cyclist in from wearing black but correctly lit, if drivers are competent and obey the bit of the Highway Code posted by Mike Sales?
But that's two enormous ifs. And if they aren't going to happen immediately for all vehicle drivers at all times why use them to oppose measures that will reduce harm until perfection is achieved?

Jonathan
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by thirdcrank »

Threads like this tend to be common sense -v- dogma.
Mike Sales
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 1:43pm
Mike Sales wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 2:03pmI have posted before that I have never seen this piece of advice to cyclists accompanied by the corresponding advice to drivers.
If this isn't merely whatboutery... does that mean advice to drivers about clothing or about lights on vehicles?

Thanks

Jonathan
I my post I quoted the Highway Code advice in Para 125 because I see it as the corresponding advice for drivers.
I see it as corresponding because the well meaning advice to cyclists to increase their conspicuity should be accompanied by advice to drivers which tackles the other half of the problem: if it were followed properly, and cyclists did their best to be seen, then there should be no difficulties.
Cyclists are hit from behind even in good visibility, so it is clear that drivers need to be encouraged to actually look out.
As I said, the advice to cyclists is frequent, it is repeated every autumn. I have never seen drivers advised to observe Para. 125.
This seems to fail to address the full problem, and risks being called victim blaming.
Of course cyclists should try to be conspicuous, but there does seem to be little or no effort to address the other side of the problem.
I also pointed out that there might be other unlit obstacles a driver might encounter. These might include another vehicle broken down, or a large animal.
It really seems to me that Para 125 is absolute common sense advice, and yet Road Safety Officers and the like never seem to mention it. Is it that they feel it very unlikely that drivers would take this advice?
Sorry to labour the point.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 2:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 1:43pm
Mike Sales wrote: 2 Dec 2021, 2:03pmI have posted before that I have never seen this piece of advice to cyclists accompanied by the corresponding advice to drivers.
If this isn't merely whatboutery... does that mean advice to drivers about clothing or about lights on vehicles?
I my post I quoted the Highway Code advice in Para 125 because I see it as the corresponding advice for drivers.
I see it as corresponding because the well meaning advice to cyclists to increase their conspicuity should be accompanied by advice to drivers which tackles the other half of the problem: if it were followed properly, and cyclists did their best to be seen, then there should be no difficulties.

...

As I said, the advice to cyclists is frequent, it is repeated every autumn. I have never seen drivers advised to observe Para. 125.
The advice to drivers on ensuring that they can be seen is in Rule 115, and other advice on lighting is in Rules 113 to 116:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 103-to-158

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 2:15pm
The advice to drivers on ensuring that they can be seen is in Rule 115, and other advice on lighting is in Rules 113 to 116:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 103-to-158

Jonathan
The problem under discussion, and the aim of the advice about how to avoid such incidents which began this thread, is drivers failing to see cyclists.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Cycling UK Norfolk joins in "Be Bright Be Seen" victim-blaming!

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks. It was the corresponding that caused the confusion.

Jonathan
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