CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Bicycler
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Bicycler » 24 Feb 2016, 4:18pm

This collective responsibility seems a right nonsense. How the heck are people meant to judge how well their elected representatives are representing them if the representative can't tell people how they voted or which policies they disagreed with? Collective unaccountability more like.
Last edited by Bicycler on 24 Feb 2016, 11:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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honesty
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby honesty » 24 Feb 2016, 5:07pm

Haven't you just hit on a key point there though. These people are elected to vote one behalf of the members. They have done this and gone for a new logo. To then request a full member vote seems to go against the original principle of having elected representatives...

Regulator
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Regulator » 24 Feb 2016, 5:10pm

honesty wrote:Haven't you just hit on a key point there though. These people are elected to vote one behalf of the members. They have done this and gone for a new logo. To then request a full member vote seems to go against the original principle of having elected representatives...



They're not "elected to vote on behalf of the members" - they're elected to represent the members and their interests. There are certain things, such as the change of am organisations name or status, that you would normally expect to be put to a vote of the full membership.

What the rules allow and what is right and proper are often two different things.

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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby geocycle » 24 Feb 2016, 5:16pm

honesty wrote:Haven't you just hit on a key point there though. These people are elected to vote one behalf of the members. They have done this and gone for a new logo. To then request a full member vote seems to go against the original principle of having elected representatives...


Not necessarily, members of parliament make all sorts of decisions without consultation but when a constitutional change is required eg EU/Scotland they hold a referendum. Depends on CTC constitution and how they want to interpret it.

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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Psamathe » 24 Feb 2016, 6:09pm

Councillors can only really represent member if they are able to communicate (consult) them. But seems (from discussions on this forum) that National Office do not provide Councillors information to allow this consultation to take place. Seems they will allow some communications (things they agree with(?)) to be sent and they send on behalf of the Councillor. So it's very difficult/impossible under such a scheme for a Councillor to properly "consult" with their electorate.

Thus there is no effective representation of club members.

I can see that some club members might not want to be consulted on issues. Easy to sort, maybe provide an "unsubscribe" link at the bottom of such e-mails or provide a list of "communications preferences" under the membership renewal or online account. So there is really no excuse for Councillors not to be provided with electorate contact details and the means to consult with them. Except it seems they aren't!

Ian

John Catt
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby John Catt » 24 Feb 2016, 6:33pm

Regulator wrote:
honesty wrote:Haven't you just hit on a key point there though. These people are elected to vote one behalf of the members. They have done this and gone for a new logo. To then request a full member vote seems to go against the original principle of having elected representatives...



They're not "elected to vote on behalf of the members" - they're elected to represent the members and their interests. There are certain things, such as the change of am organisations name or status, that you would normally expect to be put to a vote of the full membership.

What the rules allow and what is right and proper are often two different things.


The official name of the Cyclists' Touring Club is not being changed. That would require a resolution with the support of 75% of those voting in a General Meeting. What is being changed and is at the discetion of Council is the branding. The decision to use CTC as a trading name was a similar decision taken in the past by Council. As I understand it the member groups will continue to operate under the CTC/Cyclists' Touring Club brand as they so choose.

Branding is not permanent and can be changed again if it is not deemed to be working.

As company directors/charity trustees, councillors have a duty to work within the objects of the organisation (regardless of what members might wish) and have a fiduciary duty to take decisions that they believe to be in the best interests of the organisation.

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honesty
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby honesty » 24 Feb 2016, 7:00pm

...and if you don't like it, elect someone else. As what happened to PB...

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gaz
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby gaz » 24 Feb 2016, 7:19pm

Philip Benstead wrote:... Regarding any mandate, does the elected council for the south east have a mandate the top person I think got 40 votes. ...

There are currently 10 Councillors who were elected "unopposed", effectively representing members on a mandate of 0 votes. No current Councillor has been elected with more than 189 votes to their name*.

How many votes did you have when you were last representing me? :wink:

*Source, Cyclileaks
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Philip Benstead
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Philip Benstead » 24 Feb 2016, 9:33pm

gaz wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:... Regarding any mandate, does the elected council for the south east have a mandate the top person I think got 40 votes. ...

There are currently 10 Councillors who were elected "unopposed", effectively representing members on a mandate of 0 votes. No current Councillor has been elected with more than 189 votes to their name*.

How many votes did you have when you were last representing me? :wink:

*Source, Cyclileaks



From memory

CTC (Cyclists’ Touring Club)
Councillor (Non-Executive Director)

2013 - 2015 South East uncontested

2003 - 2007 Greater London I can top of the poll out of four candidate including Simon Legg

1996 - 1998 East England I beat the other candidate Brian Morris by 87 votes

1992 - 1994 Kent and East Sussex I beat the other candidate from south Kent who names I can’t remember at the moment
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
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gaz
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby gaz » 24 Feb 2016, 9:36pm

Thank you.
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Bicycler
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Bicycler » 24 Feb 2016, 11:55pm

honesty wrote:Haven't you just hit on a key point there though. These people are elected to vote one behalf of the members. They have done this and gone for a new logo. To then request a full member vote seems to go against the original principle of having elected representatives...

Not really, representative democracy isn't in any way incompatible with participatory democracy. It serves to allow day to day decisions to be made, but it doesn't preclude a full poll of the electorate on important issues.

John Catt wrote:The official name of the Cyclists' Touring Club is not being changed. That would require a resolution with the support of 75% of those voting in a General Meeting. What is being changed and is at the discetion of Council is the branding. The decision to use CTC as a trading name was a similar decision taken in the past by Council.

I don't think the current situation is comparable with the relatively uncontentious decision to use the club's initials CTC in branding. In this case it effectively amounts to a change in the name of the organisation, though I realise it technically isn't. IMO it should have been put to the membership.

As I understand it the member groups will continue to operate under the CTC/Cyclists' Touring Club brand as they so choose.

I hope you're right but I have not seen this communicated. I gather that in the recent past NO have been rather keen to discourage older terminology.

honesty wrote:...and if you don't like it, elect someone else. As what happened to PB...

It might be a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted. It would only change future decisions. Petitioning for a vote is a perfectly legitimate means of challenging a particular policy.

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gaz
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby gaz » 25 Feb 2016, 8:11am

Bicycler wrote:...
As I understand it the member groups will continue to operate under the CTC/Cyclists' Touring Club brand as they so choose.

I hope you're right but I have not seen this communicated. I gather that in the recent past NO have been rather keen to discourage older terminology. ...


Chair's statement
Message from the Chair: Rebranding Update
...
What does this mean for Member Groups?

CTC Member Groups will not need to change their names, their jerseys or other aspects of their branding unless they want to. Most Member Groups have a clear identity and touring orientation that is well recognised by local club cyclists and they will be free to maintain that identity. It will continue to be possible to obtain classic kit and winged wheel badges – and we plan to develop further items drawing on the charity’s rich heritage.
...
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gaz
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby gaz » 25 Feb 2016, 8:18am

Bicycler wrote:... Not really, representative democracy isn't in any way incompatible with participatory democracy. It serves to allow day to day decisions to be made, but it doesn't preclude a full poll of the electorate on important issues. ...

It doesn't demand it either. CTC's position on mandatory helmet wearing has never been put to a full poll of the electorate: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=211

Difficult job deciding what issues are "important issues", glad I'm not on Council :mrgreen: .
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Bicycler
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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Bicycler » 25 Feb 2016, 9:11am

Thanks for the correction gaz (it was late!). Apologies to John. We'll have to see if this is honoured in the long term.

AIUI, although widely ignored, currently only dedicated touring groups are allowed to have "Cyclists' Touring Club" in their name, most MGs are required to use CTC. DAs and Sections are verboten. Is it only the small number of dedicated touring groups who will continue to have a choice to identify as CTC under CUK?

It doesn't demand it either. CTC's position on mandatory helmet wearing has never been put to a full poll of the electorate

To me, the name of a membership organisation is self-evidently an issue important enough to warrant a vote. Indeed this is required. What we have here is effectively, though not technically, a change of name. I'd like to think that any membership organisation with any pretence of democracy would vote on such an issue.

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Re: CTC CHANGE OF NAME

Postby Psamathe » 25 Feb 2016, 9:39am

Bicycler wrote:...
As I understand it the member groups will continue to operate under the CTC/Cyclists' Touring Club brand as they so choose.

I hope you're right but I have not seen this communicated. I gather that in the recent past NO have been rather keen to discourage older terminology.
...

I think this would hinder the Member Groups. If WACU is to become the great force in cycling that they seem to think (I have great doubts but anyway, assuming it is to become a major player), then as that great high profile organisation they will be creating a lot of publicity and have a high public profile, particularly amongst those considering and starting cycling. So when people hunt around for their local WACU group they wont find one. And I believe many do hunt around using Google - I did and I never visited CTC web site in my search. So in effect the CTC member groups will be perceived as being completely different from WACU and thereby not be carried along on the wave of profile WACU believes they will create.

Ian