CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

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gaz
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby gaz » 20 Oct 2016, 4:39pm

To be honest, I am speculating.

IIRC I cut and pasted the wording from the CTC Tours Ts&Cs "CTC Tours are open only to members of Cycling UK or of national organisations that are members of the European Cyclists’ Federation (ECF)".

There is no reference in that statement to the differing categories of ECF membership. On the other hand there is a requirement to be a member of a ECF member organisation, Sustrans is not a membership based organisation. Even so the ECF entry lists Sustrans as having members :? .

If anyone has an interest in obtaining a definitive answer I would suggest they contact CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd.
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Psamathe
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby Psamathe » 20 Oct 2016, 5:18pm

gaz wrote:To be honest, I am speculating.

IIRC I cut and pasted the wording from the CTC Tours Ts&Cs "CTC Tours are open only to members of Cycling UK or of national organisations that are members of the European Cyclists’ Federation (ECF)".

There is no reference in that statement to the differing categories of ECF membership. On the other hand there is a requirement to be a member of a ECF member organisation, Sustrans is not a membership based organisation. Even so the ECF entry lists Sustrans as having members :? .

If anyone has an interest in obtaining a definitive answer I would suggest they contact CTC Cycling Holidays & Tours Ltd.

From that text I think "members of" would be different from "affiliates to". But that is just my interpretation of the language NOT any knowledge of the rules or how they might be applied. So I'd interpret being a member of a club affiliated to CUK would not (on it's own) be enough.

Ian

AndyK
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby AndyK » 24 Oct 2016, 1:48pm

gaz wrote:Just to muddy the waters the entry for Cycle Nation does not declare a membership category :? .

Actually it does - it says "full member" on the detailed page you linked to. But as Cycle Nation is an affiliation of organisations rather than individuals, it doesn't help in this case anyway.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby SA_SA_SA » 27 Oct 2016, 6:16pm

I emailed CTC Tours:
it seems you need to be a full 'member'/supporter of Cycling UK too go on the holidays.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)

nigelnightmare
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby nigelnightmare » 2 Nov 2016, 12:47pm

They NEED all the support they can get nowadays. :wink: :wink: :roll:

Barred1
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby Barred1 » 5 Nov 2016, 8:41am

My understanding is that CTC Holidays is run pretty much as a separate business with profits going back to CTC.

In that case why do customers of CTC Holidays have to be members (in whatever form) of CTC? Provided they have compulsory and adequate insurance what's the problem with taking money from anyone?

The only possible issue that I can see is if the travel industry bonding/licence stuff is based on a specific "membership organisation"

CTC's loss would be some membership fees BUT it would appear that the profits derived from an open-market approach would more than outweigh that. CTC Holidays can in no way be described as a "member benefit" such as we used to have.

Or take a lateral thinking approach and have two prices - with/without CTC membership to pick up those that understandably don't ever want to be CTC members.

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landsurfer
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby landsurfer » 5 Nov 2016, 8:58am

So ....you have to be a member of CTC / CUK to go on the holidays ... but not to stand for the board of CTC / CUK ...???
Weird :roll:
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PH
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby PH » 5 Nov 2016, 9:39am

Barred1 wrote:CTC's loss would be some membership fees BUT it would appear that the profits derived from an open-market approach would more than outweigh that.

Don't most of them pretty much sell out already? Opening it up and putting on more tours might well increase profits, but it would be a different organisation. It isn't complicated, if you want to go on a CTC Tour, join, if you don't want to join, choose one of the many other tour companies.
I like to organise my own tours, but for the people I know who do CTC ones part of the appeal is riding with other CTC members, they are often riders with Member Groups and have something in common from the start.

GPC
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby GPC » 14 Nov 2016, 5:57pm

The current system of members only helps in that the participants are members, will almost certainly enter into the spirit of the tour and may already know other participants, leaders will also have some idea of their riding capabilities. Tour leaders are pretty happy with it that way. Some leaders also run open market tours, as others have said here, if you don't want to go on a CTC tour, or object to the direction Cycling UK are going, then don't go.
Last edited by Graham on 14 Nov 2016, 6:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: unattributed quoting removed

Barred1
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby Barred1 » 21 Nov 2016, 3:17pm

Cycle mag just arrived and has some stuff about the holiday business - saying they're not for profit - is that right because a glance at the last few accounts says:

CTC Cycling Tours & Holidays is a wholly owned subsidiary of CTC and made "Donations to chaitable holding company" of 2015 £75,568; 2014 £68,502; 2013 £83,073

Unless I don't understand which is possible that looks like profit being paid over as donations.

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thirdcrank
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Nov 2016, 3:46pm

GPC wrote:The current system of members only helps in that the participants are members, will almost certainly enter into the spirit of the tour and may already know other participants, leaders will also have some idea of their riding capabilities. Tour leaders are pretty happy with it that way. Some leaders also run open market tours, as others have said here, if you don't want to go on a CTC tour, or object to the direction Cycling UK are going, then don't go.


That's one POV, but it does seem to run counter to the charity ethos of introducing cycling to a wide range of newcomers rather than only catering for existing, experienced riders. It also seems to imply that even new cyclists prepared to show some commitment by joining to enjoy the benefits of membership rather than just pay for the bits they intend to use will not be welcome until they have learned to fit in. :(

GPC
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby GPC » 22 Nov 2016, 9:21pm

thirdcrank wrote:
GPC wrote:The current system of members only helps in that the participants are members, will almost certainly enter into the spirit of the tour and may already know other participants, leaders will also have some idea of their riding capabilities. Tour leaders are pretty happy with it that way. Some leaders also run open market tours, as others have said here, if you don't want to go on a CTC tour, or object to the direction Cycling UK are going, then don't go.


That's one POV, but it does seem to run counter to the charity ethos of introducing cycling to a wide range of newcomers rather than only catering for existing, experienced riders. It also seems to imply that even new cyclists prepared to show some commitment by joining to enjoy the benefits of membership rather than just pay for the bits they intend to use will not be welcome until they have learned to fit in. :(


Experience is relative, tours are graded so some cater for very inexperienced cyclists. I don't understand where you get the impression that CTC tours suggest people won't be welcome, heaven knows how someone can learn to fit in? What does that even mean? We are a club, by it's nature it could be reasonably expected that a club requires participation in the form of membership as a minimum. It's hardly as if we have a monopoly on holidays, in fact we are a minnow in the industry and are probably far more eclectic as an offer than many other companies. We don't have helmet requirements for example, a rule for a lot of other holiday businesses.

YEWBAB
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby YEWBAB » 28 Nov 2016, 4:12pm

Barred1 wrote:Cycle mag just arrived and has some stuff about the holiday business - saying they're not for profit - is that right because a glance at the last few accounts says:

CTC Cycling Tours & Holidays is a wholly owned subsidiary of CTC and made "Donations to chaitable holding company" of 2015 £75,568; 2014 £68,502; 2013 £83,073

Unless I don't understand which is possible that looks like profit being paid over as donations.

B1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization
I think many persons understanding of the term Non-profit organization is incorrect.
A nonprofit organization (NPO) (also known as a non-business entity[1]) is an organization with the purpose of which is something other than making a profit.[2] A nonprofit organization is often dedicated to furthering a particular social cause or advocating for a particular point of view. In economic terms, a nonprofit organization uses its surplus revenues to further achieve its purpose or mission, rather than distributing its surplus income to the organization's shareholders (or equivalents) as profit or dividends. This is known as the non-distribution constraint.[3] The decision to adopt a nonprofit legal structure is one that will often have taxation implications, particularly where the nonprofit seeks income tax exemption, charitable status and so on.

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Si
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby Si » 28 Nov 2016, 4:37pm

Had a look of the list of destinations on offer (I miss the old days when they came in a pull-out booklet) and notice that (unless I'm looking in the wrong place) there are none going to north America? Just a coincidence that none of the leaders fancied it this year or is there another reason for avoiding (rubbish exchange rates, etc)?

GPC
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Re: CTC Tours discussion - clarification about membership

Postby GPC » 2 Dec 2016, 4:12pm

Si wrote:Had a look of the list of destinations on offer (I miss the old days when they came in a pull-out booklet) and notice that (unless I'm looking in the wrong place) there are none going to north America? Just a coincidence that none of the leaders fancied it this year or is there another reason for avoiding (rubbish exchange rates, etc)?


Hello there, just a coincidence I think, holiday planning is carried well in advance and begins long before Brexit, falling pounds votes etc.