Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Dec 2016, 10:07pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Lots of get outs there. CUK advocates choice but what is that choice? One choice could be to ride with the local group and obey their rules or not ride with them.

Personally I feel that if members vote to wear helmets on their rides it is the wish of the group. To go against the will of that group's members seems plain impolite or rude. If wearing a helmet when riding with that group is such an issue for you then how well are you going to fit in? Is that group really right for you? It does seem that you and the members of the group have different outlooks on helmets, what.about everything else?

Perhaps look for some other people or groups to ride with.


What if the group voted to ban women, tricycles, beards, recumbents?

They are are breaking the rules of the Body that endorses them

If they wish to do so then they should leave the umbrella of the CUK and seek endorsement from British Cycling or similar

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Dec 2016, 8:28am

What if CUK voted to do those things?

If what the members voted for doesn't suit you or you disagree you can leave that group or organization.

However helmet wearing is not in the same league as those potential bans you brought up. Would they not come under equality legislation or some regulation enforceable by the charity commission? To.include them in this discussion is, IMHO, inflammatory. You might as well ask if the local group had voted for ritualized flogging for anyone who's dropped on a ride would that he ok too? Helmet use isn't in the same league. I also doubt the group would be strictly enforcing it. Probably most people just conform happily or begrudgingly.

Personally I take the view that helmet wearing is a choice and not to be subject to compulsion. So I too disagree with the local group's democratic decision. I also believe that it should be their decision too. Any organization that ignores the wishes of its members if reasonable, whether as a whole or a regional sub-set, is being inflexible.

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meic
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 19 Dec 2016, 8:46am

Any organization that ignores the wishes of its members if reasonable, whether as a whole or a regional sub-set, is being inflexible.

That must be more true of the local group that tries to impose things on the individuals within, than of the whole organisation which insists on a free choice for ALL members.

If what the members voted for doesn't suit you or you disagree you can leave that group or organization.

That is why I choose to ride with CUK rather than British Cycling.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Dec 2016, 9:15am

Tangled Metal wrote:However helmet wearing is not in the same league as those potential bans you brought up.


Whilst banning anyone by gender identity, race, or religion is clearly illegal, and many people may see it also as unethical or immoral, banning helmetless riders is clearly none of those.

However, I would argue that for a cycle campaigning organisation, not banning helmetless riders has a similar imperative to not illegally groups based upon other characteristics. Why?

Ensuring the freedom of choice is arguably one of Cycling UK's objectives. Allowing a member group to make helmets madatory goes against the fundamental reasons for Cycling UK to exist.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Paulatic » 19 Dec 2016, 10:11am

Tangled Metal wrote:. I also doubt the group would be strictly enforcing it.


Then why have it?
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Psamathe » 19 Dec 2016, 10:29am

meic wrote:I have just heard verbally that a local CUK group which I ride with, Pembrokeshire Freewheelers, passed a compulsory helmet rule for rides, coming into force 2017 at the AGM last October.

Can they do this while being part of the CUK?

Maybe another question (assuming that such a rule has been introduced) is, given how you ride with this group and are friends with them, if you are obliged to wear a helmet to ride with the group would you do so or stop riding. And how much of an argument would you put up against such a rule ? (irrespective of can the/can't they under the rules).

It may be a more complex decision that just "what are the rules?"

for example, many years ago where I lived the local Parish Council leader/chair wanted dogs banned from a local playing field (she hated dogs but they were causing no problems, no complaints). Whenever she raised it at the Council Meetings she never had anywhere near enough support so she could not introduce the ban. But then a combination of holidays and other commitments allowed her to call a Parish Council Meeting with few councillors but where she would have enough support and the rule was passed - only because of few Parish councillors able to attend and those who could were prepared to support her. i.e. she exploited the circumstances and situation to get her personal wishes through. So if your club meeting was along similar lines (e.g. few people attending and taking the opportunity to act against the general wishes of the club) then you might chose to fight it. whereas if the move has popular support would you go along with it, or leave, or stop riding with them, etc.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 19 Dec 2016, 11:28am

I now have a copy of the minutes for the AGM.

Item number 13 AOB. Oct 26th 2016.
TC proposed, and JC seconded, that the wearing of helmets on club rides be compulsory. After some discussion it was carried by 13 for 2 against with 3 abstentions. The rule to be: No helmet, no ride". This to be implemented for the new year's list, the Secretary to send a circular round the membership, pointing out that ride leaders have a duty of care to those riding with them. There was no other business
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby YEWBAB » 19 Dec 2016, 1:35pm

May be somebody should point this issue out to CUK at national level.

I know that PT is particularly against compulsory helmet use.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 19 Dec 2016, 1:37pm

I am getting around to doing just that.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Dec 2016, 2:32pm

meic wrote:... TC proposed, and JC seconded, ...
[/quote]

I can't speak for Clarkson but the other one is an impostor.

(None genuine without this signature) :wink:

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 19 Dec 2016, 5:52pm

The 'Objects' of the club include;
[
1.7.1 promote community participation in healthy recreation by promoting the amateur sport of
cycling, cycle touring and associated amateur sports;



Research has shown that compulsory helmet requirements deters cycling, e.g,
Evaluation of New Zealand’s bicycle law, detailing changes in the proportion of people cycling and changes to the accident rate.
Clarke, CF, Evaluation of New Zealand’s bicycle law, NZMJ 10 February 2012, Vol 125 No 1349
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/nz-clarke-2012.pdf

For the period 1989–1990 to 2006–2009, New Zealand survey data showed that average hours cycled per person
reduced by 51%.


Assessment of Australia’s Bicycle Helmet Laws, refer ‘Mandatory’ can have unanticipated consequences – Civil Liberties Australia web site, 25 Nov. 2008. Providing details of the effects of the legal requirement to wear cycle helmets. http://www.cla.asn.au/Article/081125Bik ... Policy.pdf

In 1990 bicycle helmet legislation in Victoria
resulted in a drop of 36% in the numbers cycling in
Melbourne1, see Figure 1. Post law 10% extra
wore helmets compared to 36% fewer people
cycling. This result of discouraging people was in
sharp contrast to seat belts, which did not
discourage driving.


Insisting on wearing helmets is not in keeping with the aims of the club. Member groups accept the 'Objects' as part of the group.
The motion passed was invalid by being inconsistent with the 'Objects'. Any member can join any CTC ride and not wear a helmet. The members passing the motion are misguided but may believe they are taking reasonable actions.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Cunobelin » 19 Dec 2016, 7:11pm

Tangled Metal wrote:What if CUK voted to do those things?

If what the members voted for doesn't suit you or you disagree you can leave that group or organization.

However helmet wearing is not in the same league as those potential bans you brought up. Would they not come under equality legislation or some regulation enforceable by the charity commission? To.include them in this discussion is, IMHO, inflammatory. You might as well ask if the local group had voted for ritualized flogging for anyone who's dropped on a ride would that he ok too? Helmet use isn't in the same league. I also doubt the group would be strictly enforcing it. Probably most people just conform happily or begrudgingly.

Personally I take the view that helmet wearing is a choice and not to be subject to compulsion. So I too disagree with the local group's democratic decision. I also believe that it should be their decision too. Any organization that ignores the wishes of its members if reasonable, whether as a whole or a regional sub-set, is being inflexible.


Which misses the point totally.........


In this case the Organisation itself has voted and agreed a policy, and a small maverick group has decided to ignore that policy

They simply need to be told by CUK to wind their necks in

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 19 Dec 2016, 8:23pm

meic wrote:I now have a copy of the minutes for the AGM.

Item number 13 AOB. Oct 26th 2016.
TC proposed, and JC seconded, that the wearing of helmets on club rides be compulsory. After some discussion it was carried by 13 for 2 against with 3 abstentions. The rule to be: No helmet, no ride". This to be implemented for the new year's list, the Secretary to send a circular round the membership, pointing out that ride leaders have a duty of care to those riding with them. There was no other business

Any Other Business? Can they even do that? I thought motions for an AGM to consider had to be on the agenda and available to interested parties a reasonable time before the meeting. Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to ambush a club, not that I'm suggesting that's what's happened here.
Maybe NO could encourage some of them to participate in the Ride Leaders Workshops, they could do with a better understanding of their duty of care.
I hope it's resolved with understanding, for a club to function it needs to be.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Bazza55 » 19 Dec 2016, 9:03pm

Just to clarify the helmet wearing for the Sheffield CTC group. Helmet wear has always mirrored the national policy, ie that it is down to the individual. A few years ago, a new member, who is a keen and experienced mountain bike rider, wanted to introduce mountain bike rides to the group, but she said that she would only lead rides as long as the Committee supported her suggestion that all members on mtb rides wear helmets. The rides lasted around two years and the person leading the rides left the city and the MTB rides ceased. Anyone attending a CTC ride in Sheffield will find that the majority of the members do in fact wear helmets, however there are quite a few who choose not to, at the end of the day it is down to the individual. The recommendation to wear helmets for MTB rides is still in place for Sheffield rides, but as we don't now have MTB rides, it doesn't apply.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 19 Dec 2016, 9:08pm

Bazza55 wrote:Just to clarify the helmet wearing for the Sheffield CTC group. ...

Thank you.
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