Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

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mjr
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 20 Dec 2016, 8:15am

PH wrote:Any Other Business? Can they even do that? I thought motions for an AGM to consider had to be on the agenda and available to interested parties a reasonable time before the meeting. Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to ambush a club, not that I'm suggesting that's what's happened here.
Maybe NO could encourage some of them to participate in the Ride Leaders Workshops, they could do with a better understanding of their duty of care.
I hope it's resolved with understanding, for a club to function it needs to be.

It's improper but they've done it. Their procedural fart is a minor problem compared to the fact that there's a club where 13/18 turkeys will vote for Christmas!

I've been told that many CTC groups operate de facto helmet promotion, from only helmets in photos and asking any ordinary rider if they would wear one next time, to a few ride leaders like Sheffield MTB who won't lead unless everyone has an insufficient-for-MTB helmet on, citing a duty of care, which apparently doesn't include not inflicting helmet injuries on people.

National office seem to be losing the argument against compulsion, mainly because they don't seem to be making that argument to active members. Are they? Is it too subtle?
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 20 Dec 2016, 12:40pm

I have a reply from National Office.

It is indeed against our policy to have compulsory helmet use and our Ride Leader Handbook makes it clear that it is not up to ride leaders to promote their use and it should be an individual’s choice.
As a Member Group, Pembrokeshire Freewheelers must abide by our policies and guidance.


I dont know if that is as far as they are going with it. I will wait and see if the Local Councillor has anything to add.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 20 Dec 2016, 12:52pm

mjr wrote:I've been told that many CTC groups operate de facto helmet promotion, from only helmets in photos and asking any ordinary rider if they would wear one next time, to a few ride leaders like Sheffield MTB who won't lead unless everyone has an insufficient-for-MTB helmet on, citing a duty of care, which apparently doesn't include not inflicting helmet injuries on people.

That comes as a surprise to me, I've ridden with 5 MGs and I've never even heard is discussed.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby meic » 20 Dec 2016, 1:31pm

At the moment it appears that the way forward is to email the group with an informal complaint against the AGM motion with a reference to the email from National Office.
With a note that I will not be wearing a helmet on my next ride and if anybody tries to prevent me (or anybody else) from riding without a lid or harasses me over the issue it will escalate to a formal complaint.
Of course they can still choose to ignore me all together on the ride. :lol:
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 20 Dec 2016, 2:00pm

meic wrote:At the moment it appears that the way forward is to email the group with an informal complaint against the AGM motion with a reference to the email from National Office.
With a note that I will not be wearing a helmet on my next ride and if anybody tries to prevent me (or anybody else) from riding without a lid or harasses me over the issue it will escalate to a formal complaint.
Of course they can still choose to ignore me all together on the ride. :lol:

IMO the way forward would be to make sure NO have informed them of their error and for them to let you know they had done so. This is a disagreement between one part of the club and another, having brought it to their attention it shouldn't be the responsibility of a member to rectify it.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 20 Dec 2016, 2:01pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:I've been told that many CTC groups operate de facto helmet promotion, [...]

That comes as a surprise to me, I've ridden with 5 MGs and I've never even heard is discussed.

Ridden with them without a helmet?

Also, it's not clear to me whether people see some affiliate groups as CTC groups these days.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Psamathe » 20 Dec 2016, 2:16pm

meic wrote:At the moment it appears that the way forward is to email the group with an informal complaint against the AGM motion with a reference to the email from National Office.
With a note that I will not be wearing a helmet on my next ride and if anybody tries to prevent me (or anybody else) from riding without a lid or harasses me over the issue it will escalate to a formal complaint.
Of course they can still choose to ignore me all together on the ride. :lol:

Maybe cc the e-mail to your club to National Office (using CC: NOT BCC: so they can see that it has been copied to National Office). It will also demonstrate to National Office that you are trying to resolve the issue through "peaceful means" and not leaping in to "formal complaints".

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 20 Dec 2016, 2:28pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:I've been told that many CTC groups operate de facto helmet promotion, [...]

That comes as a surprise to me, I've ridden with 5 MGs and I've never even heard is discussed.

Ridden with them without a helmet?

I choose to wear a helmet, but there have been riders on all of them without.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 20 Dec 2016, 6:28pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:
PH wrote:That comes as a surprise to me, I've ridden with 5 MGs and I've never even heard is discussed.

Ridden with them without a helmet?

I choose to wear a helmet, but there have been riders on all of them without.

And have you been within earshot of the helmetless riders the whole ride? The sort of questioning I've witnessed (non-CTC rides) has been low-level, unofficial - rarely a big BC-sportive-style bust-up at the start if there's no formal helmetless-riders-should-micturate-off policy.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 20 Dec 2016, 8:27pm

meic wrote:At the moment it appears that the way forward is to email the group with an informal complaint against the AGM motion with a reference to the email from National Office.

If you do decide to proceed this way I'd be inclined to view it as making a formal complaint at a lower level of the organisation that is Cycling UK, pointing out that National Office have confirmed a Member Group does not have the power to adopt a "no helmet - no ride" policy. If they disagree then the complaint gets raised a level.

IMO National Office should be pursuing this themselves directly with the Secretary of the MG and also making an unequivocal statement in the next edition of "Club Shorts" so all MGs are aware.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 20 Dec 2016, 10:19pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:Ridden with them without a helmet?

I choose to wear a helmet, but there have been riders on all of them without.

And have you been within earshot of the helmetless riders the whole ride?

Well maybe you somehow know the groups I've ridden with better than me, but I don't think so.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 20 Dec 2016, 11:55pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:
PH wrote:I choose to wear a helmet, but there have been riders on all of them without.

And have you been within earshot of the helmetless riders the whole ride?

Well maybe you somehow know the groups I've ridden with better than me, but I don't think so.

Not saying that. Just pointing out that you're a helmet user, so there's no reason why you'd hear any zealots badgering heretics. I think they know there's plenty of freedom-of-choice supporters, so pressure tends to be applied one on one, quietly.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby PH » 21 Dec 2016, 12:07am

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:And have you been within earshot of the helmetless riders the whole ride?

Well maybe you somehow know the groups I've ridden with better than me, but I don't think so.

Not saying that. Just pointing out that you're a helmet user, so there's no reason why you'd hear any zealots badgering heretics. I think they know there's plenty of freedom-of-choice supporters, so pressure tends to be applied one on one, quietly.

Well, you don't ride with these groups, I think it presumptuous of you to think you know better what is said within them than someone who does. They're not so big that you don't get to hear everything (At least once)and what people should or should not wear on their head is not an subject of conversation because it isn't an issue. The length of peoples mudguards and flaps is far more controversial, rightly so, it has more impact on other riders.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Vorpal » 21 Dec 2016, 8:44am

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:And have you been within earshot of the helmetless riders the whole ride?

Well maybe you somehow know the groups I've ridden with better than me, but I don't think so.

Not saying that. Just pointing out that you're a helmet user, so there's no reason why you'd hear any zealots badgering heretics. I think they know there's plenty of freedom-of-choice supporters, so pressure tends to be applied one on one, quietly.

Not everyone is offended by helmet discussions. It was occasionally discussed quite openly (and fairly objectively) on club runs of my former club. There were almost always a few people not wearing helmets, and once in a while someone asked about it. Or the policy. Ensuing discussion was not 'pressure' or 'zealots badgering heretics'. Most people simply don't care enough about this issue to do any badgering.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 21 Dec 2016, 10:14am

PH wrote:Well, you don't ride with these groups, I think it presumptuous of you to think you know better what is said within them than someone who does.

I'm not thinking that, but consider where I'm sat: I've you (who I've not met in person) saying one thing and I've other people (some of whom I have met in person) saying the opposite. Why should I believe one over the other?

Last time I rode with a CTC affiliate group, it was "no helmet no ride". I think it was one of the last times I used a helmet and I think it was my last bike-breaking crash. Am I correct in understanding that CTC national helmet policy doesn't bind affilliate groups?
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