Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

millimole
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby millimole » 21 Dec 2016, 12:44pm

On a wider note these 'rules' confuse me in how they might be enforced. On the public road, I might -as an bare headed rider - choose to start in the same place as a helmet-wearing group, happen to meet at the same coffee stop, and maybe chat to one or two of the riders I meet on the road. How can my personal excursion be stopped?


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gaz
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 21 Dec 2016, 6:56pm

mjr wrote:Am I correct in understanding that CTC national helmet policy doesn't bind affilliate groups?

AIUI AGs are not bound by CTC helmet policy, they can choose to make them mandatory for their own rides.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 21 Dec 2016, 8:57pm

Post by millimole » 21 Dec 2016, 12:44pm

On a wider note these 'rules' confuse me in how they might be enforced. On the public road, I might -as an bare headed rider - choose to start in the same place as a helmet-wearing group, happen to meet at the same coffee stop, and maybe chat to one or two of the riders I meet on the road. How can my personal excursion be stopped?


I cannot see any legal reason to stop you. However, people like to feel welcome on rides. Membership benefits should include being able to take part in CTC rides and associate rides.

http://www.cyclinguk.org/member-benefits/rides-events
Possibly a note could be added to the web page, 'helmet use is optional'. to make it plain to anyone.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 21 Dec 2016, 9:29pm

Steady rider wrote:Membership benefits should include being able to take part in CTC rides and associate rides.

Cycling UK Member Group rides, absolutely :D . Affiliate Group rides :? , membership of CTC does not entitle someone to ride with a non-Cycling UK group.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 21 Dec 2016, 10:02pm

Thanks gaz, as usual you know the finer details, looking up some links,
http://www.cyclinguk.org/membership/aff ... -and-sizes
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... ance_1.pdf
Summary of the cover provided
Affiliated bodies (‘You’) may organise rides primarily for their members. They may also organise ‘events’ which are rides for both members and the public.

Could it be changed to include 'In additional any organise rides or events shall permit Cycling UK members to take part in keeping with Cycling UK policy or advice'

Or something along those lines. Cycling UK policy or advice is to allow for personal choice in either wearing a helmet or not wearing a helmet.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 21 Dec 2016, 10:45pm

The "Summary of Cover" is exactly that, a summary of the organisers' liability insurance policy that Cycling UK has negotiated with Royal & Sun Alliance for Affiliated Groups.

Any change of cover would require a renegotiation of both the insurance policy terms and the premiums rather than passing an AGM motion :wink: .

Member Groups have their own policy. There are differences between the Summary Documents for MG and AG organisers' liability cover.

Notably MG's would not be covered for a social parachute jump with the relevant BSA machines, an equivalent exclusion does not appear in the AG summary :wink: .

Steady rider wrote:Cycling UK policy or advice is to allow for personal choice in either wearing a helmet or not wearing a helmet.

Yes, this is Cycling UK policy which must be followed by Member Groups and it is also Cycling UK's advice to Affiliate Groups.

AIUI some Affiliate Groups can and do have their own policies (made in the light of that advice) that nevertheless require helmets to be worn on their rides.

I suppose Cycling UK has previously considered taking the position that AGs should only be welcome if they support helmet choice, and rejected it. I imagine the AG acceptance policy is along the lines of "the priority of Cycling UK is to share the joy of cycling. Focusing on the narrow issue of helmet-use would be a distraction from that aim".

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 22 Dec 2016, 10:15am

Summary of the cover provided
Affiliated bodies (‘You’) may organise rides primarily for their members. They may also organise ‘events’ which are rides for both members and the public.
You are covered for rides / events providing the ride / event involves fewer than 200 riders.

'In additional any organised rides or events shall permit Cycling UK members to take part in keeping with Cycling UK policy or advice'

It appears that changes to the policy could be made and at renewal, the new terms apply. Exceptions if needed, could be added to the Cycling UK policy or advice. An AGM motion could be trying to ensure that members can take part in any rides organised in their area that have been supported by the club, the clubs insurance arrangements assists MG or AG.
ps if one or more of the trustees put this as an agenda item for Council that should be sufficient without an AGM approach.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 22 Dec 2016, 12:09pm

You really are barking up the wrong tree with this one. The AG organisers' liability insurance does not require helmet use by any rider on any Affiliate Group rides and events.

Every Cycling UK Member has the right to attend the rides and events of every Cycling UK Member Group, it is a Member Benefit. There is no compulsion on an AG to accept Cycling UK Members onto its own rides and events.

Each AG has its own members, who have the right to ride only with that particular AG subject to that particular AG's rules (there may be AGs with non-riding categories of membership, e.g. social member / riding member).

Steady rider wrote:'In additional any organised rides or events shall permit Cycling UK members to take part in keeping with Cycling UK policy or advice'

The arrangement you are proposing would mean an AG could make rules insisting their members wear helmets, only if such regulations were not binding on members of that AG who were also Members of Cycling UK.

If you really are determined to ensure that all AGs offer helmet choice then you need to petition the Trustees (by direct contact or AGM motion) to write that into the terms and conditions of AG membership. I very much doubt that the Trustees would support such a request or even see it as being compatible with our objects.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Psamathe » 22 Dec 2016, 1:39pm

gaz wrote:....
If you really are determined to ensure that all AGs offer helmet choice then you need to petition the Trustees (by direct contact or AGM motion) to write that into the terms and conditions of AG membership. I very much doubt that the Trustees would support such a request or even see it as being compatible with our objects.

I would expect that to difficult to get through. By their nature I'd expect AGs to be more separate from and less controlled by the CTC. And I'd expect that changing the AG rules to give the CTC more control over them would risk driving some away (even if it was only seen as "the start of a trend").

But I'm guessing.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 22 Dec 2016, 4:42pm

Seems like we are viewing this from different perspectives. A number of options may be available and they would need detailing.

The AG link says;
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... ance_0.pdf

You are covered provided the ride / event is run in accordance with any guidance issued by Cycling UK and in particular that you are aware of all participants on the ride / event, either through collection of names or by completion of an entry form.


CTC guidance;
http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/vi ... le-helmets
•Individuals should be free to make their own decisions about whether or not to wear helmets, with parents making these decisions in the case of younger children. Their decisions should be informed by clear information about the uncertainties over the benefits or otherwise of helmets.


The guidance from Cycling UK is stated above. For their insurance to be valid they need to 'provided the ride / event is run in accordance with any guidance issued by Cycling UK', so if they insist on helmets they are not meeting their obligations, that seems clear.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 22 Dec 2016, 5:08pm

Your above link is to Cycling UK's policy statement on helmets rather than to guidance on providing rides and events.

The Ride Leader Handbook is a more appropriate place to look for Cycling UK's guidance to both MGs and AGs (my underline).

5.1.3 Rider equipment
...
Points to note:
• Cycling UK advocates freedom of choice as regards the wearing of helmets and hi-viz clothing
(https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/v ... -briefings).
• Bear in mind, however, that other organisations may require riders to use certain items of
clothing and equipment
: but it is not up to Ride Leaders to promote or otherwise the pros and
cons of these.

In its guidelines Cycling UK advocates freedom of choice and links the policy to state the case for choice. Cycling UK guidance accepts that "other organisations" may require riders to use helmets. AGs are "other organisations", MGs are not.

Cycling UK guidance says its not up to Ride Leaders to debate the matter. If someone comes to an AG ride where the AG's regulations are "no helmet, no ride", the Ride Leader's responsibility is to enforce that regulation "because those are the AG's rules". The Ride Leader should not suggest the requirement for wearing of helmets is for any other reason e.g. "for your own safety", "because it will save your life", etc.

I feel my comments in this thread judge the current Cycling UK helmet wearing policy with regard to both MGs and AGs correctly. IMO there is no appetite among the Trustees to change it and I expect a change to insist upon "mandatory helmet choice" from AGs would not be in line with our objects. I don't believe I've anything else to add.

Edit: The situation is more ambiguous than I had thought and whilst I maintain my view I would be wise to make greater allowance for the doubts others have expressed.
Last edited by gaz on 23 Dec 2016, 10:35am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby mjr » 22 Dec 2016, 6:18pm

gaz wrote:Cycling UK guidance accepts that "other organisations" may require riders to use helmets. AGs are "other organisations", MGs are not.

Really? Isn't "other organisations" in that context the likes of BC, rather than merely the AG itself?

BC requires helmets for some rides and some groups are affiliated to both - but BC also offers to insure those rides, so CTC/CUK could withdraw its insurance from such rides if it wanted to, which would seem prudent when another organisation is willing to take on the riskier behaviour of helmet users.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby Steady rider » 22 Dec 2016, 6:35pm

The statement is a formal policy statement; http://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/vi ... le-helmets
Cycling UK View (formal statement of Cycling UK's policy):

•Individuals should be free to make their own decisions about whether or not to wear helmets, with parents making these decisions in the case of younger children. Their decisions should be informed by clear information about the uncertainties over the benefits or otherwise of helmets.


You are covered provided the ride / event is run in accordance with any guidance issued by Cycling UK - so it does not matter what other organisation require, they accept the terms of the insurance.

by meic » 20 Dec 2016, 12:40pm

I have a reply from National Office.

It is indeed against our policy to have compulsory helmet use and our Ride Leader Handbook makes it clear that it is not up to ride leaders to promote their use and it should be an individual’s choice.
As a Member Group, Pembrokeshire Freewheelers must abide by our policies and guidance.


From the above it appears that all cycle rides provided by the CTC and insured by the CTC must allow riders to decide for themselves if to wear a helmet.

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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby gaz » 23 Dec 2016, 10:34am

meic wrote:I have a reply from National Office.

It is indeed against our policy to have compulsory helmet use and our Ride Leader Handbook makes it clear that it is not up to ride leaders to promote their use and it should be an individual’s choice.
As a Member Group, Pembrokeshire Freewheelers must abide by our policies and guidance.
(My underline)

The above confirms Cycling UK Member Groups must allow riders to decide for themselves whether to wear a helmet. There is no reference to Affiliate Groups in that statement.

mjr wrote:Really? Isn't "other organisations" in that context the likes of BC, rather than merely the AG itself?

Interesting question and one that has prompted me to heed the words of Scarfolk Council, "For more information please reread".

Back then to the Ride Leader Handbook to check who the target audience for the information are (my underline).
Introduction
Welcome to the Cycling UK Ride Leader workshop. This workshop is for those who take people out on group cycle rides on road, and those who would like to. Participants may be from Cycling UK Member Groups, Cycling UK affiliate groups, and the wider community.

Attending a Ride Leader Training session provides no formal qualification. I'd expected it to only be delivered to ride leaders from MGs and AGs. It's hard for me to imagine a circumstance where an external body would accept an "unqualified" person to lead a ride under that external body's own insurance, so I really wasn't expecting "and the wider community". Nevertheless it is there.

A little further on (my underline).
NOTE 2 that Cycling UK Member Groups and Affiliated groups must abide by our guidance for insurance purposes, but other bodies may have their own rules and regulations to be followed by people leading rides for them, for example schools and youth groups.

Which clearly differentiates "other bodies" from both MGs and AGs, although schools and youth groups can be behind setting up AGs.

Throughout the document there are references to Cycling UK rides that IMO cover both MG and AG rides, there are other references to Cycling UK rides that IMO only encompass MG rides.

The situation is more ambiguous than I had thought and whilst I maintain my view I would be wise to make greater allowance for the doubts others have expressed.

The Member Group Handbook includes the following (my underline).
Affiliated Groups
...
Affiliated Groups are NOT bound by all the policies included in this Policy Handbook. They receive specific guidance on applicable policies at the date of their annual affiliation renewal. However, familiarity with this material may be useful in the successful operation of the Group and is available on that basis.

I am not familiar with the content of that specific guidance.

At the end of the day I have neither knowledge of the helmet policies of any local Cycling UK AGs nor plans to ride with them, I won't be asking for clarification from National Office.
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Re: Compulsory Helmets in Local Group.

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Dec 2016, 7:54pm

A wise person said: it is nice to agree with people, but one learns most from those with different opinions from ones own.
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