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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 1:40pm
by thirdcrank
I'm with gaz on this and in addition to his "speaking for all cyclists" point, I'd add that the nature of a charity - being governed by trustees - tends to reduce and ultimately eliminate the democratic influence of members - hence the popularity of the expression "supporters" in some quarters. It may just be that that experienced cyclists know a bit about what's good for cyclists.
Beyond that, charities receive a lot of public money in the form of the beneficial tax régime as well as direct subsidies. This makes them public bodies liable to criticism from the public.
Having said that, I don't think the subject of the thread shows anybody in a good light.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 1:49pm
by steady eddy
There seems to be some confusion here over just what a "charity" does. Charities are essentially special interest groups putting forward a view aligned with the best interests of their supporters, not the public at large. In this case the supporters are cyclists. At times our best interests will coincide with those of the wider public but not all the time. For example if we are seeking wider cycle lanes at the expense of road width for cars there is a direct benefit to cyclists, at the expense to the public at large, but it not an inappropriate thing for a cycling focused charity to seek.
Charitable status allows that special interest group certain tax benefits in exchange for its performance in certain ways - It does not require them to act in the best interests of the public at large.
The "charitable sector " includes all sorts of interest groups from the small local charities distributing miniscule incomes to the poor at the Parish level to behemoths like the RNLI, most of the major public schools and housing associations.
Whilst I acknowledge that this is a public forum, it is the Cycling UK forum - if people continue to feel aggrieved about the charity issue there are lots of other places they can air their views. Here the issue has long become stale.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 2:24pm
by gaz
JohnW wrote:... what they did to Philip Benstead does suggest that they do have some kind of an overview. ...
It feels to me like no more than 15 minutes have passed since he last posted on this forum. Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast
.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 2:35pm
by Bez
thirdcrank wrote:It may just be that that experienced cyclists know a bit about what's good for cyclists
Experienced cyclists know a bit about what's good for experienced cyclists.
I would question any assumption that experienced cyclists know much about what's good for those who currently feel unable to experience cycling.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 2:39pm
by Vorpal
gaz wrote:JohnW wrote:... what they did to Philip Benstead does suggest that they do have some kind of an overview. ...
It feels to me like no more than 15 minutes have passed since he last posted on this forum. Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast
.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 2:53pm
by thirdcrank
Bez wrote: .... I would question any assumption that experienced cyclists know much about what's good for those who currently feel unable to experience cycling.
That's Chris Boardman down the pan, then.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 3:07pm
by Bonefishblues
Vorpal wrote:gaz wrote:JohnW wrote:... what they did to Philip Benstead does suggest that they do have some kind of an overview. ...
It feels to me like no more than 15 minutes have passed since he last posted on this forum. Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast
.
I'm Philip Benstead!
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 3:17pm
by Bez
thirdcrank wrote:Bez wrote: .... I would question any assumption that experienced cyclists know much about what's good for those who currently feel unable to experience cycling.
That's Chris Boardman down the pan, then.
I said I'd question the
assumption. Clearly there are a fair few who do understand what less confident and less enthusiastic people need. But equally there are a fair few who don't, and who argue for things which just reinforce the barriers those people face.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 3:23pm
by gaz
Bonefishblues wrote:I'm Philip Benstead!
Oh no, not another outbreak of Spartacus Syndrome
.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 3:38pm
by thirdcrank
Bez wrote: ... I said I'd question the assumption. Clearly there are a fair few who do understand what less confident and less enthusiastic people need. But equally there are a fair few who don't, and who argue for things which just reinforce the barriers those people face.
I know what you posted. If you had included your explanation with it, we'd not be having this exchange now. Assumptions are there to be questioned, but sweeping statements are open to question too.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 4:18pm
by Mick F
Cyril Haearn wrote:Mick F wrote:I met him once.
'nough said.
I have noted him yet, please enlighten me, diolch
Nothing I could put a finger on, but I didn't particularly like him.
I chatted to him ........ or should I say I was in conversation with a couple of people as a group of which he was of a part.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 4:20pm
by mjr
steady eddy wrote:For example if we are seeking wider cycle lanes at the expense of road width for cars there is a direct benefit to cyclists, at the expense to the public at large, but it not an inappropriate thing for a cycling focused charity to seek.
I don't see how that's an example of "expense to the public at large": wider cars enabled by more road width being left to them doesn't seem in anyone's interests, while increased cycling levels are in the interests of everyone, even motorists who benefit from reduced congestion in the lanes they use as people switch from motoring to cycling.
steady eddy wrote:Charitable status allows that special interest group certain tax benefits in exchange for its performance in certain ways - It does not require them to act in the best interests of the public at large.
The government disagrees "to be a ‘charitable purpose’ (as defined in the Charities Act) it must fall within the descriptions of purposes in the Charities Act (see part 3 of this guide) and be for the public benefit – the ‘public benefit requirement’ (see part 4 of this guide)"
steady eddy wrote:Whilst I acknowledge that this is a public forum, it is the Cycling UK forum - if people continue to feel aggrieved about the charity issue there are lots of other places they can air their views. Here the issue has long become stale.
Hardly - I think Cycling UK members are still switching to better cycling campaigns and I would urge any remaining members reading this to reconsider their support before they all get restructured out of power.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 6:32pm
by Cyril Haearn
Bonefishblues wrote:I'm Philip Benstead!
There is a forum member *Philip Benstead*. Are there two people with the same name, or do you use aliases? I am very confused
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 6:34pm
by Paulatic
To be honest I'm struggling to see how anything said on this thread is either 'in bad taste' or 'a bit personal'.
The subject is a leader of an organisation who must surely expect that not everyone can agree with him. The falling membership number speaks for itself suggesting the direction isn't as successful as BC. Trying to emulate BC may well be yet another step in the wrong direction. If you are on a club ride do you not give your leader a bit of banter regarding route or choice of cafe stop perhaps?
Certainly my own comments are nothing more than the subject himself has broadcast elsewhere so nothing fictitious there.
Last weekend I met and cycled with one of the paid foot soldiers of CUK. I've followed this person on Twitter for 3 or 4 years and the personality of this person in real life was exactly as I'd built up over the years. I've followed PT for sometime and, similar to MickF's view, there is something I can't put my finger on but I very much doubt I'd make an effort to ride alongside him for very long.
I'm aware that at the moment I'm freeloading on the best elements of CTC and some days I get very close to rejoining. If I joined now it looks like I'd get a goody bag of cycling related items supposed value of £30 all for my £28.50 joining fee. Sadly the best elements, to me, are diminishing and the grumbling bits are getting worse.
Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?
Posted: 2 Jun 2017, 7:25pm
by Vorpal
Paulatic wrote:To be honest I'm struggling to see how anything said on this thread is either 'in bad taste' or 'a bit personal'.
I think at least one thing, and possibly more have been removed from this thread.