When will P Tuohy Leave?

matt_twam_asi
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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby matt_twam_asi » 11 Jun 2017, 11:10pm

gaz wrote:
Psamathe wrote:9 months 6 days 5 hrs 2 mins and 23 seconds

Is he pregnant? :wink:


I thought it was a Donnie Darko reference, but that's 28:06:42:12

To answer the OP question - when he's ready to leave or gets forced out, whichever is sooner.

JohnW
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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby JohnW » 12 Jun 2017, 11:43am

Is everyone being totally fair to the CEO? Is it right for us to be personal about him? He came to CTC through the process of applying for a job, and the Chair and his accolytes appointed him. Policy is decided by the chair and executive board (or board of trustees, or whatever they're called), and they have the power to restrain or sack the CEO if they're displeased or disobeyed by him; he's an employee.

I'm not writing this in personal support of PT, I don't know him in any sense of the word, and I'm not writing in his defence. If there's blame (and many of us think that there is), then the blame should be laid at the right doors.

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Jun 2017, 1:52pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:As this thread was meant to be a simple question to begat a simple answer so as I know how long I might have to wait to rejoin in any form if needed for Touring rides etc, can I request that the mods move all the unrelated stuff be moved to a separate thread.


I've remembered this.

The normal procedure would be for the head of any organisation to announce they planned to go so arrangements could be made. Any prior discussion would surely be confidential and it would be a breach of personal confidence to blab about it. This is another way of saying that if any forum member knows, they are unlikely to post. So this question is indeed simple, in the sense of naïve, or it's mischievous.

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby mjr » 12 Jun 2017, 2:14pm

JohnW wrote:Is it right for us to be personal about him? He came to CTC through the process of applying for a job, and the Chair and his accolytes appointed him.

Yes and no... while he came in as a job application, a large part of the announcement and subsequent marketing of this CEO has been personal about him. So it's not really fair to complain if members and other interested parties continue being personal, is it?

JohnW wrote:Policy is decided by the chair and executive board (or board of trustees, or whatever they're called), and they have the power to restrain or sack the CEO if they're displeased or disobeyed by him; he's an employee.

I'm not saying this has happened here, but when an organisation suffers so-called "executive capture", then the CEO and other executive officers can divert and frustrate attempts by the board or membership to do that, including such dirty tricks as refusing to put motions on agendas (ruling them out of order when it's debatable, or other rule-wonkery), failing to implement resolutions, putting meetings at unsuitable locations or times that make it difficult for most to attend, persuading friendlier candidates to stand for the board and helping their campaigns, seeking to ban critics from communication channels without premoderation and starting disciplinary proceedings against members who are critics. Basically, marginalising the democracy and picking off any critics that unlurk, one by one. In that situation, the board and membership no longer have effective power to restrain or sack the CEO - or even direct them, really.

In voluntary organisations, it's scarily easy to do that, especially under non-interventionist governments and weak regulators. Full-time employees have far more time to work on the organisation than members.
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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby JohnW » 12 Jun 2017, 3:22pm

Thanks for your response mjr. I've learned something. You've opened my eyes. Underhand deals are not worthy of CTC - perhaps a name-change to CUK is not so inappropriate.

mjr wrote:..............I'm not saying this has happened here, but when an organisation suffers so-called "executive capture", then the CEO and other executive officers can divert and frustrate attempts by the board or membership to do that, including such dirty tricks as refusing to put motions on agendas (ruling them out of order when it's debatable, or other rule-wonkery), failing to implement resolutions, putting meetings at unsuitable locations or times that make it difficult for most to attend, persuading friendlier candidates to stand for the board and helping their campaigns........................................

.............hm - well - makes a chap think, doesn't it? I had wondered whether non-cycling (not really cyclists, as we know each other) non-members (not really members, as we know each other) had been head-hunted for the list of candidates. To be honest, probably in my naivety, I really had wondered and been uneasy about them and the way they were appointed onto the list but I hadn't imagined unethical skulduggery.

mjr wrote:.................................seeking to ban critics from communication channels without premoderation and starting disciplinary proceedings against members who are critics. Basically, marginalising the democracy and picking off any critics that unlurk, one by one. In that situation, the board and membership no longer have effective power to restrain or sack the CEO - or even direct them, really....................

.................hm - well - I had really wondered about the CJ situation - it had occurred to me that the move by the erstwhile CTC had been personal and malicious - and now you mention it..........

I would like to clarify that the CTC employees that I've met and spoken to on the 'phone or by e-mail I see as all dedicated, decent and positive stalwarts. Most of those that I've met were in-post before the CTC ship was finally torpedoed into a (so called) charity, so I think it must be clarified that in our thoughts we distance them from the CEO.

In the light of what you say mjr, there'd be no point in submitting a resolution to next year's AGM for PT's removal? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby mjr » 12 Jun 2017, 3:45pm

JohnW wrote:In the light of what you say mjr, there'd be no point in submitting a resolution to next year's AGM for PT's removal?

I have no idea and it's not really the place of a member of a member of an organisation with a memorandum of understanding with CTC to tell CTC members what to do. In many democratic organisations, member resolutions aren't allowed to explicitly affect specific members of staff because employment matters are usually reserved to the board or a subcommittee - understandably, as they can be a legal minefield - but a CEO is a bit of a special case and I would expect a motion of no confidence to make a CEO's position untenable.

And I emphasise again that I make no specific comment on CTC, but my comments above are based on my experiences with various other organisations where I feel the members lost control. I think we don't value democratic member control highly enough at the moment.
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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby Psamathe » 12 Jun 2017, 3:47pm

JohnW wrote:Is it right for us to be personal about him?...

I seem to remember he (PT) was not reserved when it can to throwing dirt at a certain Mr Benstead (online) - quite personal against a critic. To me such things speaks volumes about the person.

Ian

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby Si » 12 Jun 2017, 4:29pm

As I've been otherwise occupied....(jeez, I hate bloody bikes)....I've not been able to read this thread until now.....'tis sailing close to the wind methinx.

I would suggest that it is incorrect to attack individuals, whether it's people on here attacking PT or it's PT attacking PB, etc. We do not want threads to be about sticking the boot in to people on a personal basis.

However, it should be perfectly fine to criticise policy.

For instance, Mr Bloggs works in the management of a well know cycling organisation. To say "Mr Bloggs is an idiot" or "Mr Bloggs is an evil dictator" would flout forum rules. To say "This policy that Mr Bloggs has for allowing motorcycles in cycle lanes is ill founded, ill thought out, will end in catastrophe, and should be fought against tooth and nail" is perfectly OK, especially if you then go on to explain why the policy is a bad idea. And then if we end up with lots of threads, all criticising Mr Bloggs' policies in a level headed, non-insulting way, well I think that anyone reading the forum will soon make up their own mind about Mr Bloggs with out anyone having to start hurling insults.

Likewise, if Mr Bloggs calls Mrs Smith an idiot you should be perfectly within your rights to say "Mr Bloggs has behaved badly, should not make personal attacks like this and should apologise". The problem comes, of course, when Mrs Smith has also called Mr Bloggs and idiot - and we get into a "he started first it , Sir" spat.

Thus, asking: "Are CUK CEOs on fixed term contracts, and if so when does the current CEO's end and what will be the process for extending it be?" would be viewed as a reasonable question of CUK policy. If, on the other hand, phrase it to mean, for instance, "when can we get rid of him because he's evil and I hate him" - it would not be viewed as the best approach to take on the forum.

Now you'll have to excuse me as my cat has just thrown up all over the floor. :roll:

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby SA_SA_SA » 12 Jun 2017, 5:56pm

thirdcrank wrote:...
The normal procedure would be for the head of any organisation to announce they planned to go so arrangements could be made. Any prior discussion would surely be confidential and it would be a breach of personal confidence to blab about it. This is another way of saying that if any forum member knows, they are unlikely to post. So this question is indeed simple, in the sense of naïve, or it's mischievous.

Just simple :) :
I thought it might be a fixed term or be public knowledge: I don't get Cycle at the minute so wouldn't see announcements.
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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby JohnW » 12 Jun 2017, 6:14pm

mjr wrote:..........And I emphasise again that I make no specific comment on CTC, but my comments above are based on my experiences with various other organisations where I feel the members lost control. I think we don't value democratic member control highly enough at the moment.


Understood.

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby JohnW » 13 Jun 2017, 3:42pm

Si wrote:................I would suggest that it is incorrect to attack individuals, whether it's people on here attacking PT or it's PT attacking PB, etc. We do not want threads to be about sticking the boot in to people on a personal basis.

However, it should be perfectly fine to criticise policy. ..............................


I think that about sums it up.

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jun 2017, 3:52pm

JohnW wrote:
Si wrote:................I would suggest that it is incorrect to attack individuals, whether it's people on here attacking PT or it's PT attacking PB, etc. We do not want threads to be about sticking the boot in to people on a personal basis.

However, it should be perfectly fine to criticise policy. ..............................


I think that about sums it up.

Trouble is, that makes it acceptable for PT to publish personal attacks online but can't take criticism (online) back. I think he set the "standard" with his personal attacks.

To be honest it's totally inappropriate for CTC CEO to launch into online personal attacks on others, the sort of thing that should have resulted in disciplinary proceedings (if the CTC was any sort of responsible employer).

Ian

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby JohnW » 13 Jun 2017, 4:19pm

Psamathe wrote:
JohnW wrote:
Si wrote:................I would suggest that it is incorrect to attack individuals, whether it's people on here attacking PT or it's PT attacking PB, etc. We do not want threads to be about sticking the boot in to people on a personal basis.

However, it should be perfectly fine to criticise policy. ..............................


I think that about sums it up.

Trouble is, that makes it acceptable for PT to publish personal attacks online but can't take criticism (online) back. I think he set the "standard" with his personal attacks.

To be honest it's totally inappropriate for CTC CEO to launch into online personal attacks on others, the sort of thing that should have resulted in disciplinary proceedings (if the CTC was any sort of responsible employer).

Ian

Oh absolutely Ian - two wrongs don't make a right - and an ethical executive/management/trustee board could come down on a CEO who did publicly launch personal attacks, with dismissal being an option. However name-calling and personal attacks began long before this thread. We don't what's been said to who and by whom behind closed doors over the last few years and in these situations. Maybe a CEO isn't the villain of the piece - or at least not the sole villain.

I've never been a CEO myself - nothing anywhere near such a level - nowhere near - not by miles-n'-miles-n'-miles - but I have worked, and I have had to do as I was told - and occasionally against my better judgement - and sometimes those matters have gone pear-shaped - and sometimes my unimportant name has been mentioned in criticism. Luckily I've had superiors who were honourable, took the flack and have apologised themselves............the person in disfavour isn't always the baddie.

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby Bonefishblues » 13 Jun 2017, 6:34pm

There's an opening at the RSPCA, I note, mischievously :D

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Re: When will P Tuohy Leave?

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jun 2017, 7:32pm

JohnW wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
JohnW wrote:
I think that about sums it up.

Trouble is, that makes it acceptable for PT to publish personal attacks online but can't take criticism (online) back. I think he set the "standard" with his personal attacks.

To be honest it's totally inappropriate for CTC CEO to launch into online personal attacks on others, the sort of thing that should have resulted in disciplinary proceedings (if the CTC was any sort of responsible employer).

Ian

Oh absolutely Ian - two wrongs don't make a right - and an ethical executive/management/trustee board could come down on a CEO who did publicly launch personal attacks, with dismissal being an option. However name-calling and personal attacks began long before this thread. We don't what's been said to who and by whom behind closed doors over the last few years and in these situations. Maybe a CEO isn't the villain of the piece - or at least not the sole villain......

He could have apologised about his attack - but he chose not to so one must assume he feels such behaviour quite acceptable. And if he does not consider it wrong, why should I and it is not a case of two wrongs making a right.

Ian