My objection to Gift Aid

rmurphy195
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby rmurphy195 » 19 Jan 2020, 10:20am

rmurphy195 wrote:
I must admit I hadn't thought of it in that light, its so obvious and, once pointed out, makes sense to me.

I won't say I never gift aid, but the way I do it I guess sits somewhere in the middle.

For example I don't gift aid where it actually costs me more e.g. National Trust properties and similar (I'm a NT member anyway but wouldn't pay the gift aid price if I weren't)

I definitley gift aid if there's something in it for me - e.g. some museums will give a years free admission at no extra cost if you sign the forms.

Charities I don't, simply because I'm usually just putting coins in boxes/buckets on shop counters etc. and can't be bothered with the little envelopes.

As for the rest - depends on the day, but in future I'll perhaps be thinking of soapbox' comments and the implications.


But then again, having read other's comments, maybe not
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pete75
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby pete75 » 28 Jan 2020, 3:48pm

soapbox wrote:This isn't my area of expertise. I contribute the minimum I have to to my company pension, and obviously don't have a say in the contributions I make towards a state pension (which aren't for me, but to pay for those who are already drawing state pension; I will benefit from the next generation of contributors). I don't have ISAs or anything like that. I'm quite low-income and have never really had the spare cash to get involed with anything like that.


Which most likely means you'll be reliant on taxpayer funded means tested benefits in your old age. This will be diverting tax from other more deserving uses.

soapbox
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby soapbox » 28 Jan 2020, 8:33pm

pete75 wrote:
soapbox wrote:This isn't my area of expertise. I contribute the minimum I have to to my company pension, and obviously don't have a say in the contributions I make towards a state pension (which aren't for me, but to pay for those who are already drawing state pension; I will benefit from the next generation of contributors). I don't have ISAs or anything like that. I'm quite low-income and have never really had the spare cash to get involed with anything like that.


Which most likely means you'll be reliant on taxpayer funded means tested benefits in your old age. This will be diverting tax from other more deserving uses.

Wow, that's some assumption you've made there.

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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Vorpal » 28 Jan 2020, 10:40pm

pete75 wrote:
soapbox wrote:This isn't my area of expertise. I contribute the minimum I have to to my company pension, and obviously don't have a say in the contributions I make towards a state pension (which aren't for me, but to pay for those who are already drawing state pension; I will benefit from the next generation of contributors). I don't have ISAs or anything like that. I'm quite low-income and have never really had the spare cash to get involed with anything like that.


Which most likely means you'll be reliant on taxpayer funded means tested benefits in your old age. This will be diverting tax from other more deserving uses.

More deserving? Why are other uses are more deserving? Building more roads?

And maybe the problem is jobs that don't pay decent wages?

I don't have any clue what soapbox does, but there are lots of jobs where folks cannot make enough money to pay into any sort of a pension scheme. A couple of examples:

Teaching Assistant - average salary around £13000
Nursing Assistant - average salary around £14000

Folks on zero hour contracts, low minimum guaranteed hours, or who struggle to get enough hours to make ends meet in all sort of public service jobs (hairdresser, security staff, restaurants & fast food, retail, cleaners, etc.) don't make enough to do more than get by. On those kinds of wages, after rent and (cheap) food, there's not much left for everything else. Buy most of your clothes at charity shops, depend on cycling/walking or bus to get around, don't buy insurance, and the rest is almost enough to cover utilities & stuff.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Cyril Haearn » 29 Jan 2020, 3:59am

So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?
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Vorpal
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Vorpal » 29 Jan 2020, 6:08am

Cyril Haearn wrote:So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?

1.3 million pension-aged people in poverty in the UK. I imagine this will only get worse.

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk ... d-figures/
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Oldjohnw
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 Jan 2020, 7:16am

Cyril Haearn wrote:So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?


Yep!
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pete75
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby pete75 » 29 Jan 2020, 8:40am

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
soapbox wrote:This isn't my area of expertise. I contribute the minimum I have to to my company pension, and obviously don't have a say in the contributions I make towards a state pension (which aren't for me, but to pay for those who are already drawing state pension; I will benefit from the next generation of contributors). I don't have ISAs or anything like that. I'm quite low-income and have never really had the spare cash to get involed with anything like that.


Which most likely means you'll be reliant on taxpayer funded means tested benefits in your old age. This will be diverting tax from other more deserving uses.

More deserving? Why are other uses are more deserving? Building more roads?

And maybe the problem is jobs that don't pay decent wages?

I don't have any clue what soapbox does, but there are lots of jobs where folks cannot make enough money to pay into any sort of a pension scheme. A couple of examples:

Teaching Assistant - average salary around £13000
Nursing Assistant - average salary around £14000

Folks on zero hour contracts, low minimum guaranteed hours, or who struggle to get enough hours to make ends meet in all sort of public service jobs (hairdresser, security staff, restaurants & fast food, retail, cleaners, etc.) don't make enough to do more than get by. On those kinds of wages, after rent and (cheap) food, there's not much left for everything else. Buy most of your clothes at charity shops, depend on cycling/walking or bus to get around, don't buy insurance, and the rest is almost enough to cover utilities & stuff.


Nursing and teaching assistants are in jobs covered by the NHS and LGPS schemes. Both still provide a good indexed linked, salary based pension. LGPS contribution for 13,000 a year salary is 5.5% of gross and this attracts tax relief so real contribution is about £11 a week. Accrual rate is 1/49th so after 30 years the pension would be about £8,000 pa, state pension is about £8700 so the person would have an income of about £16700. The NHS scheme is similar. Membership of both schemes is automatic on appointment. You've chosen rather poor examples to illustrate your point.

pete75
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby pete75 » 29 Jan 2020, 10:02am

Vorpal wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?

1.3 million pension-aged people in poverty in the UK. I imagine this will only get worse.

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk ... d-figures/


Yes but how on earth do you expect the people represented by Johnson's government to get wealthier if it isn't by taking money from the poor.

PH
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby PH » 29 Jan 2020, 11:27am

Vorpal wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?

1.3 million pension-aged people in poverty in the UK. I imagine this will only get worse.

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk ... d-figures/

from the same link
Most poverty rates aren’t all that different to what they were at the start of the 2000s. The most marked reduction has been in pensioner poverty, it is almost half as common as it was back in 2000, while rates for working-age adults are now slightly higher

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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Vorpal » 29 Jan 2020, 7:43pm

PH wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:So shall there be lots of miserably poor people with insufficient pensions in a few years? And lots of people with too much money? :?

1.3 million pension-aged people in poverty in the UK. I imagine this will only get worse.

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk ... d-figures/

from the same link
Most poverty rates aren’t all that different to what they were at the start of the 2000s. The most marked reduction has been in pensioner poverty, it is almost half as common as it was back in 2000, while rates for working-age adults are now slightly higher

Except that pensioner poverty has been rising in the last few years.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/latest-news/ar ... n-poverty/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -across-uk
https://www.jrf.org.uk/data/pensioner-poverty
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Vorpal
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Vorpal » 29 Jan 2020, 8:21pm

pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Which most likely means you'll be reliant on taxpayer funded means tested benefits in your old age. This will be diverting tax from other more deserving uses.

More deserving? Why are other uses are more deserving? Building more roads?

And maybe the problem is jobs that don't pay decent wages?

I don't have any clue what soapbox does, but there are lots of jobs where folks cannot make enough money to pay into any sort of a pension scheme. A couple of examples:

Teaching Assistant - average salary around £13000
Nursing Assistant - average salary around £14000

Folks on zero hour contracts, low minimum guaranteed hours, or who struggle to get enough hours to make ends meet in all sort of public service jobs (hairdresser, security staff, restaurants & fast food, retail, cleaners, etc.) don't make enough to do more than get by. On those kinds of wages, after rent and (cheap) food, there's not much left for everything else. Buy most of your clothes at charity shops, depend on cycling/walking or bus to get around, don't buy insurance, and the rest is almost enough to cover utilities & stuff.


Nursing and teaching assistants are in jobs covered by the NHS and LGPS schemes. Both still provide a good indexed linked, salary based pension. LGPS contribution for 13,000 a year salary is 5.5% of gross and this attracts tax relief so real contribution is about £11 a week. Accrual rate is 1/49th so after 30 years the pension would be about £8,000 pa, state pension is about £8700 so the person would have an income of about £16700. The NHS scheme is similar. Membership of both schemes is automatic on appointment. You've chosen rather poor examples to illustrate your point.


I don't think that those are especially poor examples. They only get NHS/LGPS pension schemes if they work for the NHS or state schools. Non-registered staff in the NHS such as Nursing Assistants, clinical care staff, healthcare assistants, etc. are more likely to be agency workers than registered nurses. I don't know what proportion are agency or short term, but I used to play football with a couple of women who were agency nursing assistants. They always hoped they'd be taken on as permanent staff, but every time that looked likely for either, their jobs got moved.

Registered nurses who work for agencies tend to make more money than NHS staff, but nursing assistants don't. I think agency teachers (usually supply teachers) tend to make more, as well, but I don't know about teaching assistants.
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pete75
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby pete75 » 29 Jan 2020, 9:54pm

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Vorpal wrote:More deserving? Why are other uses are more deserving? Building more roads?

And maybe the problem is jobs that don't pay decent wages?

I don't have any clue what soapbox does, but there are lots of jobs where folks cannot make enough money to pay into any sort of a pension scheme. A couple of examples:

Teaching Assistant - average salary around £13000
Nursing Assistant - average salary around £14000

Folks on zero hour contracts, low minimum guaranteed hours, or who struggle to get enough hours to make ends meet in all sort of public service jobs (hairdresser, security staff, restaurants & fast food, retail, cleaners, etc.) don't make enough to do more than get by. On those kinds of wages, after rent and (cheap) food, there's not much left for everything else. Buy most of your clothes at charity shops, depend on cycling/walking or bus to get around, don't buy insurance, and the rest is almost enough to cover utilities & stuff.


Nursing and teaching assistants are in jobs covered by the NHS and LGPS schemes. Both still provide a good indexed linked, salary based pension. LGPS contribution for 13,000 a year salary is 5.5% of gross and this attracts tax relief so real contribution is about £11 a week. Accrual rate is 1/49th so after 30 years the pension would be about £8,000 pa, state pension is about £8700 so the person would have an income of about £16700. The NHS scheme is similar. Membership of both schemes is automatic on appointment. You've chosen rather poor examples to illustrate your point.


I don't think that those are especially poor examples. They only get NHS/LGPS pension schemes if they work for the NHS or state schools. Non-registered staff in the NHS such as Nursing Assistants, clinical care staff, healthcare assistants, etc. are more likely to be agency workers than registered nurses. I don't know what proportion are agency or short term, but I used to play football with a couple of women who were agency nursing assistants. They always hoped they'd be taken on as permanent staff, but every time that looked likely for either, their jobs got moved.

Registered nurses who work for agencies tend to make more money than NHS staff, but nursing assistants don't. I think agency teachers (usually supply teachers) tend to make more, as well, but I don't know about teaching assistants.


Actually looking at your figures they're a bit low. Minimum wage is £8.21 so someone on min wage and usual 40 hour working week would get over £17,000 a year. Nursing assistant probably more as would often work weekends. Saturday normally paid at time and a half and Sunday double time.

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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby Vorpal » 30 Jan 2020, 8:48am

I think the low average is due to people on zero hours (or flexible hours) contracts, unable to get full time hours, etc.,

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nimum-wage

I got the averages from payscale Careersmart has a higher average, but that is for people in full time work.

Teaching assistants are typically only paid for working time within school hours, and not preparation time, so, 30 or 32.5 hours per week, not 40, if they are there for the whole school day (the primary school where I used to live paid teaching assistants for 8.30 - 14.00, not including a 30 min. lunch break).

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/annach ... 11964.html
this is a teacher...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... insecurity
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PH
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Re: My objection to Gift Aid

Postby PH » 30 Jan 2020, 8:58am

pete75 wrote: Saturday normally paid at time and a half and Sunday double time.

What decade are you living in? Anyone still lucky enough to be on those terms will most likely be in a heavily unionised industry (Remember those?) Far more usual now to have a single Unsocial Hours premium rate and I've seen those as low as 15%. The best offer I've had in the last couple of decades was time and third on Sat and time and half Sun, with the hours considered unsocial in the week considerably shrunk. Increasingly common is for workers previously considered hourly paid to now be considered salaried, which as the minimum wage rises erodes any premium. That of course is those lucky enough to even have a contract.