Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Steady rider
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Steady rider » 31 Oct 2020, 7:54pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49349566
Interesting figures.
I suppose HS2 should go on direct lines to Europe. Similar with the East Coast Main line direct to Europe, with pick up points. Fares need to be per km for both air and rail within Europe perhaps and air having a cost factor added and limited to the number of journeys per person per year. Taking account of areas with no train service.

Doubtful if any government would support a major change. Best way forward may be to provide cheap rail and fast services.

Shipping emissions per km? is it better to take a cycle or car, by ferry or train across the channel?
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... nfographic

https://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotT ... ships.aspx

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CJ
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby CJ » 7 Nov 2020, 5:27pm

Steady rider wrote:Shipping emissions per km? is it better to take a cycle or car, by ferry or train across the channel?


The links following that question didn't really answer it, but your BBC reference did - sort of - right at the end.
Foot passenger: 18g/person.km
Driver and car: 128g/person.km
Passenger on a cruise ship: 251g/person.km!

The first two numbers are all very well for short cross-channel services and answer the question posed. Assuming a bike doubles the foot passenger figure, it would be better to put your bike on Eurostar - if only one could. One can actually, two even, but more than that and it's on yer bike - or car more like and take the ferry! There does seem to be a conspiracy to blacken cyclist's haloes when we try to venture abroad!

Don't dismiss the third, alarmingly high figure as irrellevant, on the grounds that cruise ships are floating hotels rather than transport. On longer crossings, such as UK to Spain, this number gives some indication of how carbon consumption is inflated by providing the necessary sleeping accommodation, plus expanded dining and entertainment facilities. Although the operator likes to call these ships cruise ferries, they probably aren't quite as carbon-profligate as an actual cruise liner. On the other hand, people don't bring their car on a cruise. Brittany ferries is very cagey when it comes to the CO2 performance of their 'cruise ferries', but I'm guessing at least 200g/km per driver with car, at which rate it's doubtful that any less carbon is burnt than driving all the way down through France.

As for cyclist on a cruise ferry, your guess is as good as mine, but without the truck and car traffic I doubt these services would run at all.

You can tell it's like that from how Brittany Ferries delays opening bookings to foot passengers and cyclists until they are sure of filling the vehicle decks or expect to have surplus passenger capacity after accommodating every vehicle likely to book. Like the railways, ferries regard cyclists as a passenger type that may be turned on or off as required!
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Nov 2020, 9:30pm

CJ wrote:If, on the other hand, Cycling UK were to channel a good chunk of the funds contributed by it's many cycle-touring members into the ECF Bikes on Trains Campaign for at least 8 bikes on all European trains, that would really make a difference. CUK's failure to fund or even publicise this campaign is IMHO nothing short of a betrayal and a DERELICTION OF DUTY.

Or seeing as CUK has (I don't know why) left ECF, to start with a similar campaign for trains in the UK. And to make those spaces accessible to all regardless of height and arm strength.

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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Cyril Haearn » 8 Nov 2020, 6:54am

Financial reasons of course
Anyone know how much?
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CJ
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby CJ » 8 Nov 2020, 10:06am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Financial reasons of course
Anyone know how much?

Of course it is much cheaper to criticise cycle-tourists for flying, whilst pretending that putting one's bike on the train remains a viable option!
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby CJ » 8 Nov 2020, 10:23am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Financial reasons of course
Anyone know how much?

In brief (download ECF Membership Information pdf for details): it would take about 50p from every class of single or joint membership fee except junior, for CUK to be a full member of ECF. And since CUK has some very cheap deals that it nevertheless counts as some kind of 'member', that would be inconvenient. That'll be why CTC used to be merely an associate member. Sustrans still is. So if cycle-tourists want their membership fee to be spent on actions that promote (rather than deprecate) international cycle-touring, they should perhaps consider joining a different organisation!
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Bmblbzzz » 8 Nov 2020, 11:05am

Going back to the ferry emission figures for a minute: bikes, people and the luggage either carry, are relatively light and small. Cars are quite big and heavy, especially when loaded with holiday luggage. But they are nowhere near as big or heavy as the HGVs which form the baseload of many ferries. And of course the boat itself is pretty big. Foot passengers and cyclists are probably pretty much irrelevant to the total fuel used. Like a document carried in the cab of an articulated lorry.

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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Steady rider » 8 Nov 2020, 6:58pm

Thanks CJ for the extra details.
I prefer the ferry for enjoyment but rail seems the best option for reducing pollution.
https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/so ... ail_en.pdf

The country seems to lack a good cycling strategy and HS2 takes more people to the most congested location to start with.

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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby CJ » 9 Nov 2020, 4:04pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Going back to the ferry emission figures for a minute: bikes, people and the luggage either carry, are relatively light and small. Cars are quite big and heavy, especially when loaded with holiday luggage. But they are nowhere near as big or heavy as the HGVs which form the baseload of many ferries. And of course the boat itself is pretty big. Foot passengers and cyclists are probably pretty much irrelevant to the total fuel used.

There are no HGVs - nor even any cars - just foot passengers on a cruise liner; and yet somehow it manages to burn a humungous 251g of carbon per passenger.km.

I'm thinking that must be because most of the energy is consumed in heating a big metal box immersed in cold sea-water, rather than propulsion. And the ship still needs heating in port, where a cruise line spends up to half its time going nowhere. A cruise ferry on the other hand, keeps mostly on the move. And it doesn't heat quite as much empty space per passenger. But it does also transport cars, buses and HGVs.

We can imagine a green utopia in which everyone holidays like we do, on foot or awheel with a minimum of luggage, instead of decanting half their house into the family car! We might then possibly discover how little carbon it takes for us to go by ship to Spain, except that in Utopia of course: the ship will have sails!
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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Nov 2020, 4:16pm

The YHA certainly went down the tubes when it stopped catering for young people of limited means travelling under their own steam....

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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Bmblbzzz » 9 Nov 2020, 4:50pm

CJ wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Going back to the ferry emission figures for a minute: bikes, people and the luggage either carry, are relatively light and small. Cars are quite big and heavy, especially when loaded with holiday luggage. But they are nowhere near as big or heavy as the HGVs which form the baseload of many ferries. And of course the boat itself is pretty big. Foot passengers and cyclists are probably pretty much irrelevant to the total fuel used.

There are no HGVs - nor even any cars - just foot passengers on a cruise liner; and yet somehow it manages to burn a humungous 251g of carbon per passenger.km.

I'm thinking that must be because most of the energy is consumed in heating a big metal box immersed in cold sea-water, rather than propulsion. And the ship still needs heating in port, where a cruise line spends up to half its time going nowhere.

I'm inclined to agree. And of course a cruise liner is a bigger vessel than even the Spanish ferries, let alone the cross-Channel boats.

A cruise ferry on the other hand, keeps mostly on the move. And it doesn't heat quite as much empty space per passenger. But it does also transport cars, buses and HGVs.

Which makes it, in many ways, not really suitable to compare it to a cruise liner; even if it consumes approximately the same amount of fuel, it's doing more propulsion.

We can imagine a green utopia in which everyone holidays like we do, on foot or awheel with a minimum of luggage, instead of decanting half their house into the family car! We might then possibly discover how little carbon it takes for us to go by ship to Spain, except that in Utopia of course: the ship will have sails!

Electric ferries are already a thing. I'll dig out some references in a minute.
Last edited by Graham on 9 Nov 2020, 6:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: quote

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Re: Disagreement with AGM resolutions

Postby Bmblbzzz » 9 Nov 2020, 4:58pm

Only one in the UK, it turns out, and it's rather small.
https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/uks-fi ... -plymouth/

But there's one in Norway that carries 200 passengers and 30 cars. It doesn't say how many bikes! Range 22 nautical miles, takes 25 minutes to recharge.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50233206

And others coming soon to New York https://electrek.co/2018/10/05/switch-e ... y-service/
and Canada https://electrek.co/2018/11/07/all-elec ... es-canada/
which will carry as much as 400 passengers and 75 cars.