Non member on group run

roberts8
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Non member on group run

Postby roberts8 » 14 Aug 2020, 12:11pm

A while ago a regular rider in our group said they were not happy about the direction of Cuk and were not members. As our rides on public roads I is there a problem of riding along with old friends. When Cuk wakes up and starts offering good events I can understand these being limited or cheaper for members. Does anyone get refused if not a member, I hope not.

PH
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PH » 14 Aug 2020, 12:24pm

It invalidates the insurance, in which case it might as well not be a MG ride.
Member groups can offer rides open to all, they simply organise and register them as events. My MG does that for specific rides which happen occasionally and are seen as an event, but a look at the Cycling UK events program shows that other MG's are doing it on a regular basis.

pedals2slowly
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby pedals2slowly » 14 Aug 2020, 6:03pm

People who keep quoting 'oh we are not insured' to justify not doing something don't really help.
Insurance is largely a red herring on group rides.

Ride leader insurance - I asked CUK how many instances there were of a ride leader being sued - apparently only one ever, which was a severely injured rider suing a commercial mountain bike course leader.
Individual rider insurance - if the regular rider has done more than 3 rides with the group they are not covered if sued by another rider in the group, so what are the chances - pretty slim. The majority of insurance claims are for riders claiming against other riders but again pretty few and far between.

We are trying to encourage everyone to cycle, I'd let them ride but let everyone else know the situation.
This person sounds like a free-loader and should be encouraged to support CUK and take out a membership, it is only a few quid a year!

all the details are here https://www.cyclinguk.org/insurance/event-organiser

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mjr
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby mjr » 14 Aug 2020, 6:13pm

pedals2slowly wrote:Individual rider insurance - if the regular rider has done more than 3 rides with the group they are not covered if sued by another rider in the group, so what are the chances - pretty slim. The majority of insurance claims are for riders claiming against other riders but again pretty few and far between.

And the majority of serious riders probably hold other insurance covering this.

This person sounds like a free-loader and should be encouraged to support CUK and take out a membership, it is only a few quid a year!

It was clearly stated that they had left due to dissatisfaction with the direction of CUK. How does that sound like a free-loader?

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, I don't believe most groups are checking whether riders are members or not, or doing several other things from the CUK guidance, so the organiser insurance seems pretty much theoretical anyway.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Carlton green
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby Carlton green » 14 Aug 2020, 6:18pm

roberts8 wrote:A while ago a regular rider in our group said they were not happy about the direction of Cuk and were not members. As our rides on public roads I is there a problem of riding along with old friends. When Cuk wakes up and starts offering good events I can understand these being limited or cheaper for members. Does anyone get refused if not a member, I hope not.


Are CUK events only open toe CUK members and is this a CUK event? It seems that your old club mate has hit upon a thorny problem. It seems like a lot of folk aren’t happy with the direction CUK are taking and so some memberships won’t be renewed. The simplest way around things is for local CUK clubs and sections to break links with CUK and set up on their own. My local community has a cycling group, it isn’t CUK and membership is just £5 per year. ‘Sorted’, as they say.

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gaz
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby gaz » 14 Aug 2020, 7:27pm

roberts8 wrote:Does anyone get refused if not a member, I hope not.

Ride Leader Handbook
RLH1.png
Once, twice, three times a non-member.

The three ride maximum policy is presumably aimed at letting people experience club riding before making a financial commitment. It is a should not rather than a must not but then again I don't know whether Highway Code rules apply. The timescale for the three ride maximum is not defined (three times a calendar year, three times in the individual's lifetime?).

I don't know what enforcement would look like. Declining to add their name to the list of participating riders and asking them politely to leave until they can produce a valid membership card, arranging a strongly worded letter from the committee to cease and desist if they insist on tagging along?

If they keep turning up IMO it's time to seek guidance from National Office rather than welcoming them and hoping nothing happens that would test the insurance position.

Please note that gaz is not FCA regulated and cannot assess individual needs for insurance. You will not receive advice or recommendations from gaz about them. Please direct your queries to your chosen insurance provider, who may be either vaguely reassuring or reassuringly vague in their response (wonderful phrase, my thanks to mjr for providing it on another thread). Hand wash only. Do not iron. Your home may be at risk if you leave the gas on whilst out on a club ride regardless of membership status. Posted on a forum that contains track nuts and cannot be guaranteed track nut free.
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby mjr » 14 Aug 2020, 7:47pm

gaz wrote: It is a should not rather than a must not but then again I don't know whether Highway Code rules apply.

I think "You are covered provided the ride is organised in accordance with our guidance" makes the shoulds into musts. BC do a similar trick with their sportive "guidelines" to make them effectively rules, including some that I suspect wouldn't be allowed if they were rules that affiliated organisers couldn't choose to break and buy alternative insurance coverage.

If they keep turning up IMO it's time to seek guidance from National Office rather than welcoming them and hoping nothing happens that would test the insurance position.

What could they do? CUK trying to prevent people cycling together on public roads would be deeply ironic, probably make it look very silly in the press and possibly attract the attention of the charity commissioners for acting contrary to the charitable aims.
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PH » 14 Aug 2020, 8:59pm

pedals2slowly wrote:People who keep quoting 'oh we are not insured' to justify not doing something don't really help.
Insurance is largely a red herring on group rides.

Who are these people? Considering I'm the only one who'd replied prior to your comment I'm going to assume you're misrepresenting me. I laid out the facts and offered no opinion on how relevant that insurance was, I'm pretty sure in another thread I made exactly the point that it's so rarely called upon.
But here's a question for you, if you're not bothered about the cover offered by CUK, why bother making it a CUK ride? Why wouldn't a group just keep it informal, it's easy enough to organise it that way, just look at BC's Ride Social program.

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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PH » 14 Aug 2020, 9:06pm

gaz wrote:The three ride maximum policy is presumably aimed at letting people experience club riding before making a financial commitment. It is a should not rather than a must not but then again I don't know whether Highway Code rules apply. The timescale for the three ride maximum is not defined (three times a calendar year, three times in the individual's lifetime?).

Also note that those rules don't apply if the ride is run as an event open to the public and registered with CUK.
My MG did for a short while sponsor an affiliated group in order to run short rides open to all (The affiliated group was free to join and you could do so at the start of a ride) we now run these as events (Though not this year unfortunately).
EDIT - I've just seen from following a link above that this year the event Insurance is only for those that fit in with - Big Bike Revival, Bike Week and
Women’s Festival of Cycling. That's something new, my MG could probably work with that by running that series under the Big Bike Revival banner, but it's a restriction that wasn't there last year.

pedals2slowly
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby pedals2slowly » 14 Aug 2020, 10:34pm

PH wrote: Considering I'm the only one who'd replied prior to your comment I'm going to assume you're misrepresenting me.


Don't take it personally - 'Oh you won't be insured' is an oft quoted phrase used by numerous people to put people off doing things.
I'd be happy to lead a group cycling without insurance for me as leader and without anyone being insured.
I'm anti-insurance and trying to combat the rising tide of people so risk averse they do nothing exciting.

PeterT
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PeterT » 15 Aug 2020, 11:28am

pedals2slowly wrote:
PH wrote: Considering I'm the only one who'd replied prior to your comment I'm going to assume you're misrepresenting me.


Don't take it personally - 'Oh you won't be insured' is an oft quoted phrase used by numerous people to put people off doing things.
I'd be happy to lead a group cycling without insurance for me as leader and without anyone being insured.
I'm anti-insurance and trying to combat the rising tide of people so risk averse they do nothing exciting.


Being also anti insurance the ONLY reason I am a member of CUK is to allow me to ride with my fellow club members for which I must be insured. So to hike the over 65 club 'fee' from £29 to £48 will mean I will look for suitable cheaper insurance, or as some have suggested lets just get together and ride without insurance. Bye bye CUK.

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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PH » 15 Aug 2020, 12:52pm

PeterT wrote:Being also anti insurance the ONLY reason I am a member of CUK is to allow me to ride with my fellow club members for which I must be insured. So to hike the over 65 club 'fee' from £29 to £48 will mean I will look for suitable cheaper insurance, or as some have suggested lets just get together and ride without insurance. Bye bye CUK.

I know several of the same opinion, I'd like to see a "Ride" class of membership, something in line with the Affiliated membership, that MG's can offer. Though as suggested on this thread (Or maybe another) it isn't hard to find an affiliated club to join which would then offer the cheapest membership to ride with a MG.

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gaz
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby gaz » 15 Aug 2020, 4:02pm

PH wrote:... it isn't hard to find an affiliated club to join which would then offer the cheapest membership to ride with a MG.

Ride with your local Cycling UK Member Group on an affiliated membership, yes.

Lead rides for your local Cycling UK Member Group on an affiliated membership, no.
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pedals2slowly
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Re: Non member on group run

Postby pedals2slowly » 15 Aug 2020, 9:51pm

gaz wrote:Lead rides for your local Cycling UK Member Group on an affiliated membership, no.


Can you provide a link to verify this statement?
I think it may impact on our local situation.

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Re: Non member on group run

Postby PH » 15 Aug 2020, 10:19pm

pedals2slowly wrote:
gaz wrote:Lead rides for your local Cycling UK Member Group on an affiliated membership, no.


Can you provide a link to verify this statement?
I think it may impact on our local situation.

The ride leaders need to be registered, they need a membership number to do so and they then become officers of that member group.
gaz is the man for finding the documentation, but the question won't arise because the MG can't register an affiliated member as a ride leader.
I'm loath to mention the I word in a reply to you, but I'd be surprised if this information isn't in the policy which you can download from the Cycling UK website.