No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

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gaz
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby gaz » 4 Oct 2015, 5:51pm

When CTC had a Technical Officer I'm sure he responded promptly to queries and then chose some for later publication in Cycle. The person raising the enquiry got a prompt and professional answer, the wider membership only got to read about the more interesting cases.

One of the reasons given for removing the role of Technical Officer was a decline in technical queries. I suppose as word spreads that CTC has neither a Technical Officer nor a Technical Department it's inevitable that the number of technical queries directed to CTC National Office will fall even further.

There's a footnote on the relevant page of Cycle that you can email your technical questions or write to CTC Q&A, adding that unpublished queries will not be answered. Realistically I cannot see anyone looking for quick resolution of a technical query contacting CTC, in the vague hope of an answer being published in the next edition of Cycle.

So I'm sure that more technical queries raised on the forum will find their way into the magazine in future.
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby TonyR » 4 Oct 2015, 5:58pm

How many members does the CTC have? 60, 70,000? And they can't even muster two or three technical enquiries from them? Given that its very unlikely most will be aware of the change and its possible implications, it points very much more to the interest in technical enquiries drying up rather than people thinking its not worth sending them in any more. And given there are plenty of fora and web resources where you can get instant gratification on your question, its not really surprising.

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2015, 9:38am

fatboy wrote:I see that obviously less people are sending in technical questions such that they are resorting to nicking questions from the forum (one of mine included). I'm not sure how I feel about this. I got a good answer but not from where I asked for it.

What does anyone else thuink?

I didn't notice the forum terms and conditions asking permission to reproduce contributions in other publications. It seems a bit on the fringes of copyright law, doesn't it?
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Graham
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Graham » 5 Oct 2015, 10:23am

mjr wrote:I didn't notice the forum terms and conditions asking permission to reproduce contributions in other publications. It seems a bit on the fringes of copyright law, doesn't it?

It is not something that I have ever considered.
As soon as one posts questions/information/opinions onto the CTC Forum it becomes available to the whole internet world.
It doesn't seem unreasonable that the organisation that funds the hosting of this forum should be able to reuse some of the material and republish it without explicit permission. ( . . . as long as it is not personal info. )

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Si
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Si » 5 Oct 2015, 11:20am

Out of interest, if you had, back in days of yore, sent your technical query directly to the technical officer - would he have then asked permission to put it into the magazine?

Anyway the magazine has been using text from the forum for years without any issues, and similar things have happened on other magazines' forums. Tis the way of the world.

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2015, 11:27am

Si wrote:Anyway the magazine has been using text from the forum for years without any issues, and similar things have happened on other magazines' forums. Tis the way of the world.

I'm no legal expert but I would have thought that if you have been breaking copyright law for years and years, that does not make it right nor make it legal. Were a driver to be let of for driving past a 20 mph limit primary school at 80 mph be let-off because "he's been doing it for years" ?

Similarly, "tis [also] the way for the world" that people get paid for use of their copyright and people breaking copyright end-up in court.

Also, the CTC today is very very different from the CTC of the past.

Ian

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Si
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Si » 5 Oct 2015, 11:37am

Is it breaking copyright law though? You have already published your text via a CTC owned medium, thus can the CTC not claim at least part ownership of copyright. But, if it is breaking copyright then you too have done likewise by copying my words in your post....I did not you permission to do so :wink:

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2015, 11:45am

Si wrote:Is it breaking copyright law though? You have already published your text via a CTC owned medium, thus can the CTC not claim at least part ownership of copyright. But, if it is breaking copyright then you too have done likewise by copying my words in your post....I did not you permission to do so :wink:

As I understood it, copyright grants to creator exclusive rights for the distribution of that work. Thus, if the creator (the poster) decides to distribute their copyright works on an internet forum, that does not grant the CTC the right to distribute that some copyrighted work through a completely different medium.

Ian

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby PH » 5 Oct 2015, 12:30pm

I think if they're going to copy the questions from the form, then they may as well copy the answers as well and save the cost of the technical editor as well.
If we look at fatboy's question as an example, there's nothing in the magazine that wasn't as well or better expressed here. Indeed I thought the magazine answer pretty poor, for a start if you're going to answer technical questions first you need to test that question - fatboy states that because of his odd rim sizes he needs 32mm tyres, yet every guide suggests the range 28 - 35 is suitable. Someone reading the magazine answer would assume the unchallenged question is therefore correct. Then, before answering the question it needs to be understood; fatboy isn't looking for an alternative to the newer heavier Marathon, though in the first part of the answer this is what's being offered! IMO if it can’t be done better than that, it’s better not done at all. When we read an answer here, we realise it's an opinion and there may be others, and there is the opportunity for discussion that you don't get in print.

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2015, 12:51pm

Si wrote:Out of interest, if you had, back in days of yore, sent your technical query directly to the technical officer - would he have then asked permission to put it into the magazine?

I would hope so, because publishing private correspondence used to be considered extremely poor etiquette, but I suspect only a former technical officer could tell us what normally happened.

Anyway the magazine has been using text from the forum for years without any issues, and similar things have happened on other magazines' forums. Tis the way of the world.

Most forums have rather more obnoxious terms than this lovely one, though. :) (for example "we and any successor may use the user Contribution in any way, in any format or medium currently known or developed in the future for the full period during which such rights subsist" or in other words, all your bits are belong to them)

The current situation is definitely on the fringes of legality and I'm not sure which side of the line it falls. I think it's unclear whether the license implicitly granted by deliberately submitting something to the CTC forum extends to the rest of CTC's activities. Worse, a third party company (James Pembroke Publishing IIRC) also asserts copyright over the magazine and I don't see why any implicit license would extend to it.

Also, as the forum registration currently describes this forum as "a place for CTC members and others to enjoy an exchange of comments and views on cycling topics, in a similar fashion to the letters pages of Cycle magazine" that means because forum users are forbidden to republish letters from Cycle magazine without seeking further permission, I feel most users would reasonably expect that Cycle magazine does not republish forum posts without asking because that would seem a similar fashion.

Ethically, if Cycle magazine is going to republish bits from the forum, shouldn't they let forum users republish bits from the magazine (beyond what's normally permitted by law)? Share and share alike. Share and Enjoy.
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2015, 1:01pm

mjr wrote:
Anyway the magazine has been using text from the forum for years without any issues, and similar things have happened on other magazines' forums. Tis the way of the world.

...
The current situation is definitely on the fringes of legality and I'm not sure which side of the line it falls. I think it's unclear whether the license implicitly granted by deliberately submitting something to the CTC forum extends to the rest of CTC's activities....

Having done a little searching (since earlier today when I first saw this bit of the thread) I would say definitely on the illegal side. A copyright owner decides how their content is distributed. Posting it on a forum is distributing it on that forum. It would in no way imply that the organisation paying for the forum has any right to take that content and publish it in a totally different media and one which may not even be provided to the copyright owner. Most people whose copyright work is used would expect to grant their permission and that permission would define the scope as to what would be done with that work.

That the CTC do not seek such permission again say a lot about how the CTC seems to operate these days.

Ian

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Si » 5 Oct 2015, 1:52pm

That the CTC do not seek such permission again say a lot about how the CTC seems to operate these days.


Or perhaps it's just a case of no one thinking that it could possibly do any harm, but instead acting with the best intentions do good because it gets good information out to more people?

Anyway, still no answer as to whether quoting someone else's words on a forum without permission is breaching copyright.

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2015, 1:55pm

Si wrote:
That the CTC do not seek such permission again say a lot about how the CTC seems to operate these days.


Or perhaps it's just a case of no one thinking that it could possibly do any harm, but instead acting with the best intentions do good because it gets good information out to more people?

Anyway, still no answer as to whether quoting someone else's words on a forum without permission is breaching copyright.

I would have expected people publishing a magazine to be properly aware of things like copyright. It would be very surprising if they were not.

Ian

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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby robgul » 5 Oct 2015, 2:22pm

.... I was quoted in the Forum piece in the mag .... is an author's fee available???

Seriously - the last 10 or so posts in this thread are in my view pretty pointless - and probably wasted a lot of time (that may be being paid for by someone else ...) with "research" being undertaken.

In the scheme of things does it REALLY matter?

Rob
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Re: No more CTC technical officer ** NO HOAX **

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2015, 2:41pm

Si wrote:Anyway, still no answer as to whether quoting someone else's words on a forum without permission is breaching copyright.

The answer is sometimes. Not clea cut either way here and I doubt anyone will push it to a determination.

Misrepresenting someone's forum post as a technical question to the magazine submitted via the forum infringes the author's moral rights though.

Does it really matter? Does CTC really matter? It feels a bit like CTC is all take take take instead of collaborative.
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All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.