Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
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horizon
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby horizon » 10 May 2019, 4:16pm

100%JR wrote:
RE protesters.
I was in Barnsley town centre for the start of stage2 and there were protesters.They were put in their place by more than one person(me included) who rightly pointed out that it's a Cycle race...Sport...not Politics and abusing the riders achieved nothing.
Idiots :x


You're right in that politics should perhaps be kept out of sport. Fracking is a highly political issue and Ineos is at the centre of the controversy. Team Sky were perhaps a bit naive in thinking that Radcliffe had no other purpose than to support cycling. It's a shame to see cycling dragged into politics by this (though it does tend to reinforce one's prejudices about sportspeople not being well informed). I'm surprised he didn't have Brexit written all over the team kit!
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Psamathe » 10 May 2019, 5:36pm

100%JR wrote:......They were put in their place by more than one person(me included) who rightly pointed out that it's a Cycle race...Sport...not Politics and abusing the riders achieved nothing.
Idiots :x

I was not aware that there had been accusations of riders being abused.

But the difficulty comes when Ineos are quite a political company in that they lobby the government(s), depend of government regulations (or lack of them) to be able to make profits (as somebody previously pointed out aboutINEOS threatens to close UK plant unless it can dodge EU pollution rules https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/23/ineos-chemicals-environment-pollution-eu-lobbying/).

So the name Ineos plastered all over the shirts has introduced an element of politics into what was a sport.

Ian

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby 100%JR » 15 May 2019, 1:11pm

Psamathe wrote:I was not aware that there had been accusations of riders being abused.

I can't say for sure it happened elsewhere but a few mates rode to start/finish of 3 stages and all said there were small pockets of protesters some of which were also shouting at Ineos riders :roll:
What we witnessed in Barnsley were protesters,who are probably the same people who complain about road closures for the various cycling events in Barnsley anyway,and Ineos/Fracking was just another excuse to turn up and try to disrupt the race shouting at the team bus and riders. :|
Most of them wouldn't know what they are protesting about anyway.
Psamathe wrote:So the name Ineos plastered all over the shirts has introduced an element of politics into what was a sport.

That could be said about any sponsorship!Sponsors pay to have their name/brand splashed all over the Team they sponsor.Just because some people don't like Fracking/Ineos shouldn't be a reason not to have the brand in full view.The only people who see it as Political are those who want to see it as Political.Me?It's just another name on a Jersey.
I don't like Trek Bikes....so should Trek remove all there logos?

A couple of weeks before the Race some idiot painted:-
FRACKING DEFIES LOGIC
in huge letters on both sides of a road bridge where the A629 crosses the A616 :roll:
"Fracking defies logic" but painting Graffiti on a road bridge doesn't......as I said Idiots :x
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Psamathe » 15 May 2019, 6:27pm

100%JR wrote:.......
Psamathe wrote:So the name Ineos plastered all over the shirts has introduced an element of politics into what was a sport.

That could be said about any sponsorship!Sponsors pay to have their name/brand splashed all over the Team they sponsor.Just because some people don't like Fracking/Ineos shouldn't be a reason not to have the brand in full view.The only people who see it as Political are those who want to see it as Political.Me?It's just another name on a Jersey.
I don't like Trek Bikes....so should Trek remove all there logos?
....

Does the existence of Trek bikes or people riding Trek bikes affect you? Carbon and Climate Change would undoubtedly affect everybody so I would regard the comparison as not relevant (though I do appreciate that analogies have limitations).

As people posted earlier, Ineos has been up to some things that many would disagree with and are very political (and without re-visiting the fracking argument) e.g. the many reports like "Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploiting Brexit to relax climate change laws', documents suggest", "Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s firm Ineos made threat over dirty air rules", "Ineos boss Ratcliffe slams EU over ‘foolish’ taxes", etc., etc.

My guess is that most people turning-up and disrupting a race in an organised manner would not be doing it because they have nothing better to do with their time but probably do wish to make a statement/protest about something - hence don't need " just another excuse to turn up and try to disrupt the race".

Re: abuse question and shouting: Many spectator sports I've seen competitors have been shouted at. Most football games involve a lot of spectator shouting but I've never heard this described as abuse and I'd expect competitors to be well used to being shouted at.

Re: Road bridge - whilst painting slogans is not a great idea, to some extent people holding strong views and a government (and companies) who just don't listen can leave people frustrated and without much of a voice so it does not surprise me that some feel the only way to make their point is through things like graffiti.

My own personal opinion is that it does matter who you take your money from and where that money has come from (for me both from my own moral stance and from the fact that you are providing something/help back in return).

Ian

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby 100%JR » 16 May 2019, 2:13am

Psamathe wrote:
100%JR wrote:.......
Psamathe wrote:So the name Ineos plastered all over the shirts has introduced an element of politics into what was a sport.

That could be said about any sponsorship!Sponsors pay to have their name/brand splashed all over the Team they sponsor.Just because some people don't like Fracking/Ineos shouldn't be a reason not to have the brand in full view.The only people who see it as Political are those who want to see it as Political.Me?It's just another name on a Jersey.
I don't like Trek Bikes....so should Trek remove all there logos?
....

Does the existence of Trek bikes or people riding Trek bikes affect you? Carbon and Climate Change would undoubtedly affect everybody so I would regard the comparison as not relevant (though I do appreciate that analogies have limitations).

As people posted earlier, Ineos has been up to some things that many would disagree with and are very political (and without re-visiting the fracking argument) e.g. the many reports like "Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploiting Brexit to relax climate change laws', documents suggest", "Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s firm Ineos made threat over dirty air rules", "Ineos boss Ratcliffe slams EU over ‘foolish’ taxes", etc., etc.

My guess is that most people turning-up and disrupting a race in an organised manner would not be doing it because they have nothing better to do with their time but probably do wish to make a statement/protest about something - hence don't need " just another excuse to turn up and try to disrupt the race".

Re: abuse question and shouting: Many spectator sports I've seen competitors have been shouted at. Most football games involve a lot of spectator shouting but I've never heard this described as abuse and I'd expect competitors to be well used to being shouted at.

Re: Road bridge - whilst painting slogans is not a great idea, to some extent people holding strong views and a government (and companies) who just don't listen can leave people frustrated and without much of a voice so it does not surprise me that some feel the only way to make their point is through things like graffiti.

My own personal opinion is that it does matter who you take your money from and where that money has come from (for me both from my own moral stance and from the fact that you are providing something/help back in return).

Ian

So they turn up in their car,stand there with their little sign in one hand and bottle of water in the other then have a rant about “climate change” :roll:
Professional moaners most of them.
Stupid person I argued with admitted they’d travelled by car,was vaping and admitted they had gas central heating and cooker.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again 99% of tree huggers are hypocrites.
Where do these “climate change” numpties think their gas,electricity,petrol,diesel,food etc actually come from?
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby mjr » 16 May 2019, 8:45am

Professional moaners? Who do you think is paying them? That's somewhat incredible.

If so, at least they're making some money at it, unlike the amateur moaners on here who like to complain that anyone against fracking isn't living an oil-free life in our oil- powered country!
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Psamathe » 16 May 2019, 10:19am

100%JR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
100%JR wrote:.......

That could be said about any sponsorship!Sponsors pay to have their name/brand splashed all over the Team they sponsor.Just because some people don't like Fracking/Ineos shouldn't be a reason not to have the brand in full view.The only people who see it as Political are those who want to see it as Political.Me?It's just another name on a Jersey.
I don't like Trek Bikes....so should Trek remove all there logos?
....

Does the existence of Trek bikes or people riding Trek bikes affect you? Carbon and Climate Change would undoubtedly affect everybody so I would regard the comparison as not relevant (though I do appreciate that analogies have limitations).

As people posted earlier, Ineos has been up to some things that many would disagree with and are very political (and without re-visiting the fracking argument) e.g. the many reports like "Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploiting Brexit to relax climate change laws', documents suggest", "Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s firm Ineos made threat over dirty air rules", "Ineos boss Ratcliffe slams EU over ‘foolish’ taxes", etc., etc.

My guess is that most people turning-up and disrupting a race in an organised manner would not be doing it because they have nothing better to do with their time but probably do wish to make a statement/protest about something - hence don't need " just another excuse to turn up and try to disrupt the race".

Re: abuse question and shouting: Many spectator sports I've seen competitors have been shouted at. Most football games involve a lot of spectator shouting but I've never heard this described as abuse and I'd expect competitors to be well used to being shouted at.

Re: Road bridge - whilst painting slogans is not a great idea, to some extent people holding strong views and a government (and companies) who just don't listen can leave people frustrated and without much of a voice so it does not surprise me that some feel the only way to make their point is through things like graffiti.

My own personal opinion is that it does matter who you take your money from and where that money has come from (for me both from my own moral stance and from the fact that you are providing something/help back in return).

Ian

So they turn up in their car,stand there with their little sign in one hand and bottle of water in the other then have a rant about “climate change” :roll:
Professional moaners most of them.
Stupid person I argued with admitted they’d travelled by car,was vaping and admitted they had gas central heating and cooker.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again 99% of tree huggers are hypocrites.
Where do these “climate change” numpties think their gas,electricity,petrol,diesel,food etc actually come from?

I think these "“climate change” numpties" would like their electricity to come from renewable non-polluting sources, would rather we phase out the use of gas, diesel, oil - and I suspect this is what they might be protesting about. Food wise I suspect they'd prefer farmers make less use of chemicals (pesticides, etc.) and thus lower their need for carbon based fuels and lower the pollution. I can't speak for them but it's generally all something I'd agree with (renewable non-polluting energy, more environmentally friendly agriculture, etc.).

The problem with hypocrisy is that it has become built-in to our system. If you want to protest about green issues you often have to travel and the moment you do that most will immediately be guilty of hypocrisy. Go on your computer to investigate or post supporting Twatter stuff and you are guilty of hypocrisy. It comes down to people making their own judgement about the greater good. If they feel that by burning a gallon of fuel they can prevent far more from being burnt then the net effect becomes worthwhile. But such judgements are made by individuals and might not always be "right" but at least they are trying to do something positive and credit to them for that.

I'll ignore the "vaping comment" as it is somewhat irrelevant.

Ian

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby mattheus » 16 May 2019, 10:22am

100%JR wrote:Professional moaners most of them.
Stupid person I argued with admitted they’d travelled by car,was vaping and admitted they had gas central heating and cooker.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again 99% of tree huggers are hypocrites.
Where do these “climate change” numpties think their gas,electricity,petrol,diesel,food etc actually come from?


Hypocrites? Probably not.

If they are driving upto people and lecturing them on CAR use, that is probably hypocritical.

How about using a plastic pen to write to your MP about plastics killing the oceans? That seems reasonable behaviour to me.

Can a campaigner against climate change justify using ANY fossil fuels? Probably - if their campaign is aimed at substantial *reduction* in fossil fuel use (and pollution), then I can't see the hypocrisy. These things are not black-and-white - apes have burned stuff for millennia, it's only unsustainable if we do way too much of it!

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby 100%JR » 16 May 2019, 10:48pm

Psamathe wrote:
100%JR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Does the existence of Trek bikes or people riding Trek bikes affect you? Carbon and Climate Change would undoubtedly affect everybody so I would regard the comparison as not relevant (though I do appreciate that analogies have limitations).

As people posted earlier, Ineos has been up to some things that many would disagree with and are very political (and without re-visiting the fracking argument) e.g. the many reports like "Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploiting Brexit to relax climate change laws', documents suggest", "Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s firm Ineos made threat over dirty air rules", "Ineos boss Ratcliffe slams EU over ‘foolish’ taxes", etc., etc.

My guess is that most people turning-up and disrupting a race in an organised manner would not be doing it because they have nothing better to do with their time but probably do wish to make a statement/protest about something - hence don't need " just another excuse to turn up and try to disrupt the race".

Re: abuse question and shouting: Many spectator sports I've seen competitors have been shouted at. Most football games involve a lot of spectator shouting but I've never heard this described as abuse and I'd expect competitors to be well used to being shouted at.

Re: Road bridge - whilst painting slogans is not a great idea, to some extent people holding strong views and a government (and companies) who just don't listen can leave people frustrated and without much of a voice so it does not surprise me that some feel the only way to make their point is through things like graffiti.

My own personal opinion is that it does matter who you take your money from and where that money has come from (for me both from my own moral stance and from the fact that you are providing something/help back in return).

Ian

So they turn up in their car,stand there with their little sign in one hand and bottle of water in the other then have a rant about “climate change” :roll:
Professional moaners most of them.
Stupid person I argued with admitted they’d travelled by car,was vaping and admitted they had gas central heating and cooker.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again 99% of tree huggers are hypocrites.
Where do these “climate change” numpties think their gas,electricity,petrol,diesel,food etc actually come from?

I think these "“climate change” numpties" would like their electricity to come from renewable non-polluting sources, would rather we phase out the use of gas, diesel, oil - and I suspect this is what they might be protesting about. Food wise I suspect they'd prefer farmers make less use of chemicals (pesticides, etc.) and thus lower their need for carbon based fuels and lower the pollution. I can't speak for them but it's generally all something I'd agree with (renewable non-polluting energy, more environmentally friendly agriculture, etc.).

The problem with hypocrisy is that it has become built-in to our system. If you want to protest about green issues you often have to travel and the moment you do that most will immediately be guilty of hypocrisy. Go on your computer to investigate or post supporting Twatter stuff and you are guilty of hypocrisy. It comes down to people making their own judgement about the greater good. If they feel that by burning a gallon of fuel they can prevent far more from being burnt then the net effect becomes worthwhile. But such judgements are made by individuals and might not always be "right" but at least they are trying to do something positive and credit to them for that.

I'll ignore the "vaping comment" as it is somewhat irrelevant.

Ian

You could have shortened your answer to “yes I agree they’re hypocrites” :roll:
Unless you live totally off grid then you have no right to protest.It is that simple.
As for vaping not being relevant?Vapers are ex-smokers who are just pumping out a different toxic chemical are they not?In fact they pump out more from what I’ve seen.
I suppose it’s ok though as these hypocrites cherry pick what the think is good and bad.
It just doesn’t cut it with me.
Get down off your pedestal as you’re impressing no one but your own ego :wink:
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Mike Sales » 17 May 2019, 8:53am

100%JR wrote:Unless you live totally off grid then you have no right to protest.It is that simple.


Even off gridders don't start with bare hands and a patch of wilderness, so should keep their mouth shut.
I guess we all have to endure the end of our present civilisation without a squeak of protest.

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Mike Sales » 17 May 2019, 9:02am

It occurs to me that William Wilberforce lived in a society whose wealth was founded on slavery. Maybe he even took sugar in his tea. He should have kept his mouth shut?

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Psamathe » 17 May 2019, 9:26am

100%JR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
100%JR wrote:So they turn up in their car,stand there with their little sign in one hand and bottle of water in the other then have a rant about “climate change” :roll:
Professional moaners most of them.
Stupid person I argued with admitted they’d travelled by car,was vaping and admitted they had gas central heating and cooker.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again 99% of tree huggers are hypocrites.
Where do these “climate change” numpties think their gas,electricity,petrol,diesel,food etc actually come from?

I think these "“climate change” numpties" would like their electricity to come from renewable non-polluting sources, would rather we phase out the use of gas, diesel, oil - and I suspect this is what they might be protesting about. Food wise I suspect they'd prefer farmers make less use of chemicals (pesticides, etc.) and thus lower their need for carbon based fuels and lower the pollution. I can't speak for them but it's generally all something I'd agree with (renewable non-polluting energy, more environmentally friendly agriculture, etc.).

The problem with hypocrisy is that it has become built-in to our system. If you want to protest about green issues you often have to travel and the moment you do that most will immediately be guilty of hypocrisy. Go on your computer to investigate or post supporting Twatter stuff and you are guilty of hypocrisy. It comes down to people making their own judgement about the greater good. If they feel that by burning a gallon of fuel they can prevent far more from being burnt then the net effect becomes worthwhile. But such judgements are made by individuals and might not always be "right" but at least they are trying to do something positive and credit to them for that.

I'll ignore the "vaping comment" as it is somewhat irrelevant.

Ian

You could have shortened your answer to “yes I agree they’re hypocrites” :roll:
Unless you live totally off grid then you have no right to protest.It is that simple.
As for vaping not being relevant?Vapers are ex-smokers who are just pumping out a different toxic chemical are they not?In fact they pump out more from what I’ve seen.
I suppose it’s ok though as these hypocrites cherry pick what the think is good and bad.
It just doesn’t cut it with me.
Get down off your pedestal as you’re impressing no one but your own ego :wink:

Re: Hypocrisy: No - I do not agree "yes I agree they’re hypocrites" - stop putting words in my mouth.

Re: Unless you live totally off grid then you have no right to protest.It is that simple.: the law would disagree with you, I would disagree with you. e.g. an analogy - I disagree with the amount we put into landfill think we should recycle more so does that mean I cannot protest about excessive landfill because I also put stuff into landfill? Or e.g. I do use/discard single use plastics (I'd rather not but sometimes impossible) so does that mean I can't protest against excessive use of single use plastics?.

Re: "Get down off your pedestal as you’re impressing no one but your own ego :wink:" - do you really think I'm writing these responses to impress others. ... oh dear but I think you have summed up why you cannot appreciate the points I'm making.

Ian

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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby mjr » 17 May 2019, 9:37am

Mike Sales wrote:It occurs to me that William Wilberforce lived in a society whose wealth was founded on slavery. Maybe he even took sugar in his tea. He should have kept his mouth shut?

Indeed. All those rich men voting to widen the franchise too. Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy, I tell you!

Has any protest ever only involved those with so- called "clean hands"?
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby 100%JR » 17 May 2019, 2:04pm

Psamathe wrote:oh dear but I think you have summed up why you cannot appreciate the points I'm making.
Ian

I cannot appreciate the points you are(trying) to make because they are Hypocritical.
All this "I don't agree with this or that" so "I do this and that to counter it" or "I do my bit and it helps" all typical replies form folk who think if they recycle a bottle or two then using their car isn't so bad because....they're doing their bit :roll:
No! It's a crock of dog-do.
You can tie tree-huggers and eco-warriors in knots with their hypocrisy :lol:

Protester are even easier as half the dim-wits are just jumping on a band waggon and haven't a clue on the actual facts :roll:
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Re: Team Sky is now Team INEOS

Postby Psamathe » 17 May 2019, 2:20pm

100%JR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:oh dear but I think you have summed up why you cannot appreciate the points I'm making.
Ian

I cannot appreciate the points you are(trying) to make because they are Hypocritical.
All this "I don't agree with this or that" so "I do this and that to counter it" or "I do my bit and it helps" all typical replies form folk who think if they recycle a bottle or two then using their car isn't so bad because....they're doing their bit :roll:
No! It's a crock of dog-do.
You can tie tree-huggers and eco-warriors in knots with their hypocrisy :lol:

Protester are even easier as half the dim-wits are just jumping on a band waggon and haven't a clue on the actual facts :roll:

e.g. to live in our western society it is all but impossible not to consume single use plastics. So under your definition of "hypocrisy" nobody would be allowed to protest about single use plastics because they are necessarily a consumer of single use plastics. Under your principles humanity would quickly self destruct because nobody would be allowed to object to crucial things.

for example, I really think we need to address Climate change and thus I object to all these CO2 emissions. But under your scheme even if I were 100% off-grid I still could not protest because every breath I took I'd be emitting CO2 and thus guilty of "hypocrisy". You might not agree with what people are protesting about but you need a better case than people being guilty of living in our western society (where it is all but impossible to completely avoid everything that is "hypocritical").

Actually you can't "You can tie tree-huggers and eco-warriors in knots with their hypocrisy" at least not using the arguments you are presenting because it's far more complex. If somebody burns 5L of petrol travelling to an event and through their actions 5,000,000L of petrol goes unburnt then the net effect is less pollution despite your arguing they can't protest because of being hypocritical - they did and it had a net positive effect!

Ian