Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
landsurfer
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 12 Jun 2019, 12:26pm

Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.
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Vorpal
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 12 Jun 2019, 12:32pm

landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Jun 2019, 12:42pm

In some ways they're not completely one or the other gender. It's a complex issue but for sport to work out needs to be simple. Perhaps equality needs to be a side issue with sport. In normal life they're women, but in competitive sport they're a different category unless they're put in a position where their route to being a woman has no advantage competitively. It's a sensitive issue especially with people's feelings/emotions involved.

thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 12 Jun 2019, 1:24pm

Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Certainly a man can take steps to conform to certain gender stereotypes, and take female sexual hormones, and androgen-suppressants, but they cannot reverse his male puberty, nor his male genetics. There are men with prostate cancer with no testosterone, but that doesn't make them 'not men'.

In some contexts we would ignore this, as if an individual wishes for us to perceive them as female, then it would be nice of us to do so, so why not? But in a sporting context, it is fundamental, since the strength difference between males and females is so universal, and is greater than any genetic advantage that has ever been identified, so it would be ridiculous for us to treat biological males as females, when they retain male skeletons, msucle/body fat that is less than natal females, and so on.

That is quite outwith the ludicrous spectacle of trying to hamper these males' performance with various rules, such as testosterone restrictions. The concept of a 'gender identity' has been taken by many to now be entirely arbitrary, so you have conventional-looking men with beards identifying as transgender. And of course they are right, since there is no objective standard by which someone can be adjudged 'transfemale' or 'transmale', since not all females conform to such stereotypes; therefore the claim to be transgender or a transwoman is one that is without meaning.

Of course a 'transwoman' can reduce testosterone levels, as is the requirement for many sporting codes, but this is quite arbitrary, and many transgender advocates would argue that transwomen can have male testosterone levels, and that the only requirement to be transgender is that you say you are.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jun 2019, 9:36am

thelawnet wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Male / female as a binary is a societal construction. Although the majority of humans fit this, not all do, and some cultures recognise multiple genders, or view gender as a spectrum.

As long as we insist upon an arbitrary division of sexes, we will have issues like this. Some will say that sex is defined by chromosomes and hormones. Others will say it is defined by gender.

To define it by sex will always discriminate against some of those who do not fit male / female binary. Although some transgender people have made news by winning at sports, they are a tiny, tiny minority of athletes, and I cannot imagine that ever changing. If we must define things in such a manner, we need to split it according to how people legally declare themselves. To do otherwise will lead to continued discrimination.

Some states in the USA have laws requiring people in school sports to compete with people who belong to the same biological sex. This results in (transgender) men and boys competing with girls. When they win it's unfair. The alternative is to allow transgender women to compete with women. When they win it's unfair.

Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 13 Jun 2019, 10:17am

Vorpal wrote:
thelawnet wrote:
Vorpal wrote:They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Male / female as a binary is a societal construction. Although the majority of humans fit this, not all do, and some cultures recognise multiple genders, or view gender as a spectrum.


As long as we insist upon an arbitrary division of sexes, we will have issues like this. Some will say that sex is defined by chromosomes and hormones. Others will say it is defined by gender.


Sex IS binary. There are small gametes (sperm) and large gametes (eggs). No human possesses both. No human with a Y chromosome possesses eggs, and no human without one possesses sperm.

There are regressive and homophobic cultures where for instance gay men, particularly those who may be perceived as effeminate, are encouraged to become a third gender. In India and Thailand, physical castration of gay, teenage boys is common.

The fact that these cultures push such men into these cruel pigeonholes, where as I understand it 'transgenders' in India are reduced to petty crime and begging, does not for a moment distract from the fact that sex is binary, and gender is an arbitrary construct. Biology doesn't care whether you identify as female - if you are biologically male, you are almost certainly stronger than the average biological female

To define it by sex will always discriminate against some of those who do not fit male / female binary. Although some transgender people have made news by winning at sports, they are a tiny, tiny minority of athletes, and I cannot imagine that ever changing. If we must define things in such a manner, we need to split it according to how people legally declare themselves. To do otherwise will lead to continued discrimination.


Arguing that numbers are low is silly - you might as well say Lance Armstrong was only one cheat. One is enough to deprive a lot of people their rightful position, earnings , fame, etc.

In terms of transgender male-to-female, they fit perfectly in the male binary in that they grew up with testicles producing testosterone which androgenized their bodies. The fact that they might have now reduced testosterone or grown their hair or whatever does not change their biology which is unambiguously male.
Some states in the USA have laws requiring people in school sports to compete with people who belong to the same biological sex. This results in (transgender) men and boys competing with girls. When they win it's unfair. The alternative is to allow transgender women to compete with women. When they win it's unfair.


Well, no. As I understand it, there is a female-to-male wrestler who has a TUE to take steroids to become male. Who is then competing against girls due to state law. The obvious solution is not to grant the TUE, and to prohibit them from competing.

Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.


Because they get thrashed! Dead last! No transgender man has ever won an elite male sporting event. It's nothing to do with sexism, it's just that there are zero instances of females transitioning to males getting stronger relative to their previous sex, and lots of instances of males transitioning to females getting much stronger, such as Laurel Hubbard , who won a World Championship silver weightlifting medal, aged 39, after giving up weightlifting as a junior, because his lifts were too mediocre, even in New Zealand and with a very rich father backing him

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Jun 2019, 10:20am

Vorpal wrote: ... Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.


That's possibly because there's no obvious advantage to a transgender man. I wonder if many, if any, transgender men compete against men. :?

I agree that nothing is clear-cut. I remember a few years ago a letter to the editor from a wiseacre complaining about the publicity given to the Paralympics. His sneer was along the lines that everybody knows that a man with two legs can run faster than a man with an artificial leg and a man with one leg can run faster than a man with two artificial legs. ie Somebody who can never have seen how fast amputee athletes (T 41/46?) can shift with blades.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jun 2019, 12:36pm

Transgender men do compete against other men.

They are less likely to make the news or be as prominent. The ones that are prominent, for the most part, are also activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/t ... r-compete/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 13 Jun 2019, 5:57pm

Vorpal wrote:Transgender men do compete against other men.

They are less likely to make the news or be as prominent. The ones that are prominent, for the most part, are also activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/t ... r-compete/


The reason they are activists is because they stand no hope of winning. A nice sponsorship from Nike is quite another matter

Bailar's PBs score last place

https://www.collegeswimming.com/results ... me14493692
https://www.collegeswimming.com/results ... me14493692