Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
thelawnet
Posts: 2282
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 11 Feb 2020, 6:40pm

Vorpal wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:The thing I find most telling about this issue, is the complete absence of any WTM trans athletes. I wonder why that is?


There is not a complete absence. Transgender athletes are competing at all levels of sport. Like most folks, they just want to get on with life & enjoy what they are doing. They only make headlines when someone thinks a transgender person has done something controversial, like winning.

Vorpal wrote:Transgender men do compete against other men.

They are less likely to make the news or be as prominent. The ones that are prominent, for the most part, are also activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/t ... r-compete/

Also http://www.ncaa.org/static/champion/a-t ... ransition/


None of the FTM athletes are competitive.

None.

It's physically impossible.

Anyone who claims otherwise is either deluded or dishonest.

Mosier does triathlons and there's much more difference between an elite and an also ran than there is between aam and a woman. In fact Mosier is slower than female athletes who don't take testosterone. There is no success story for these athletes, and there never can be.

Schuyler Bailar finishes near last in Harvard swim meets which are themselves not the Olympics

Meanwhile you have third rate men's village cricketers miraculously making it to elite women's sport.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Carlton green » 11 Feb 2020, 6:59pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
... thing that winds me up, is when someone who is physically pretty much a large man, cheats ( in my opinion ) and enters a women’s event under the LGBTQLampostUnicornwhatever banner, and wins.

Image

I mean look at the size of the Trans woman, in comparison to the actual women. It’s a joke.


To my mind that illustrates the problem pretty well and IMHO the truly sporting thing for the particular person concerned to do would be either not to compete or to compete with a suitable handicap (points, weight, etc) that attempted to rebalance what is, I think, obviously unfair advantage. Thinking about such a handicap system what would one do for a transgender person of similar build to the born as female contestants, and then at what point(s) do we judge that remnants of a person’s pre-transition attributes give rise to unfair competition?

I honestly don’t know the answers but I would suggest to those concerned with competing and competition that reasonable compromise should be sought including retirement from events where factors other than skill and training give contestants a clear and unsporting advantage. As they say “just becomes you can do something doesn’t mean that you should”.

fullupandslowingdown
Posts: 241
Joined: 11 Oct 2007, 5:47pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 12 Feb 2020, 4:04am

I think a more appropriate saying would be

"Just because you can say anything doesn't mean that you should"

Carlton green
Posts: 441
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Carlton green » 12 Feb 2020, 10:19am

fullupandslowingdown wrote:I think a more appropriate saying would be

"Just because you can say anything doesn't mean that you should"


Without wishing to be antagonistic or hurtful towards anyone I’d be interested to hear an explanation of your comment, please. At the moment I can only assume - and hope that I’m mistaken - that you’re not interested in competition being both fair and being seem to be fair.

Where there some particular points in my comment above yours that you wished to logically challenge? I’m all for reasoned and civil debate so welcome logical, informed and well made responses.

For what it’s worth "Just because you can say anything doesn't mean that you should" is indeed true on many occasions, but so is the reverse “Just because you didn’t say anything doesn't mean that you shouldn’t have”. Here’s a well know example:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

I think that we could add various minority groups to that list, it’s important that (when and where we usefully can) we do speak out for the fair treatment of all.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6318
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2020, 11:18am

Oooh! Discussion has descended into calls for people to SU and Godwins could also be applied. Signs the thread has nearly run its course.

Let's change things up a bit. Instead of discussing the narrow area of trans sport, let's widen it to how trans fit into society in general and a side order of trans aggression to those questioning the way things are affected by this part of society.

For example vulnerable female's groups questioning the integration of mtf trans within their group.

Or the insult TERF and the Twitter abuse given out by pro trans to people who simply ask a legitimate question.

IMHO there are two issues going on that conflict at times. These are trans rights for integration and non- trans rights. Occasionally they do clash.

So perhaps in order to save this thread shall we're discuss issues and not bring up national socialism or try to censor others (AKA telling them in other words to STFU!).

Marcus Aurelius
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Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 12 Feb 2020, 3:53pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Oooh! Discussion has descended into calls for people to SU and Godwins could also be applied. Signs the thread has nearly run its course.

Let's change things up a bit. Instead of discussing the narrow area of trans sport, let's widen it to how trans fit into society in general and a side order of trans aggression to those questioning the way things are affected by this part of society.

For example vulnerable female's groups questioning the integration of mtf trans within their group.

Or the insult TERF and the Twitter abuse given out by pro trans to people who simply ask a legitimate question.

IMHO there are two issues going on that conflict at times. These are trans rights for integration and non- trans rights. Occasionally they do clash.

So perhaps in order to save this thread shall we're discuss issues and not bring up national socialism or try to censor others (AKA telling them in other words to STFU!).


Not really, the issue being discussed, has a very narrow scope, I for one really don’t give a monkey’s about Trans people in wider society, I only give a stuff, when they start cheating in cycling events.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Feb 2020, 4:18pm

It's part of the same set of issues at its heart. Performance in sports is as much about where they place in sports or society. What you want doesn't affect that.

fullupandslowingdown
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Joined: 11 Oct 2007, 5:47pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 12 Feb 2020, 8:58pm

Seeing as I was asked politely...

My comment was general, and not a charge at any one person. It was in response to what I perceive as a growing problem of intolerance to others and a number of personal attacks on those who hold different views orchestrated by a few individuals who perhaps feel emboldened by the relative anonymity of the internet. Both in the wider net, and here on this particular forum.

I am fully aware of the famous Pastor Martin Niemöller's famous poem.

I believe that the whole point of civilisation is not that we all should be alike, do alike and believe alike, but we should accept and not discriminate against others and their differences. I am not slow to see that this results in conflicts between the rights and needs of different people. Seemingly fundamental conflicts that appear to have no logical solution that protects the rights of all sides. But just because the way forward is difficult, and requires self examination and a willingness to adapt, doesn't mean we should just pander to the loudest voices and throw everyone else under the wheels of fascism.

There is no answer obvious to me, to the particular issue raised in this thread. It seem logical that a person born physically male who perhaps spends some years developing physical capacity in some discipline, will despite having their testosterone levels chemically reduced, have an advantage over someone who was born female and therefore has never had the same benefit of muscle mass building attributed to higher levels of testosterone. That is after all why international athletics etc ban the use of steroids etc that could increase muscle mass or improve the cardio vascular efficiency of a body.

But may I remind people of the quite wide variance of body shape, height and weight, in the top athletes competing in world class cycling such as the TDF.


I am not familiar with the history or biological statistics of the rider who forms the subject of this thread. But I can see multiple connecting issues that maybe none of us here are fully qualified to judge on. We don't know what it is truly like to be for instance to be born as a woman in a man's body, I can only imagine the considerable mental stress that could cause. Neither will I decide if it is right that such a trans woman should give up her competitive aspirations because of the situation that fate brought about. I suggest that that is still discrimination; to say yes you can transition, as long as you don't do A,B or C.


The IAAF policy on hyperandrogenism, or high natural levels of testosterone in women, was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015. The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence.


I am mindful as I write this of the case of the sis woman, Caster Semenya who has to fight for the right to compete as a woman just because she has a naturally high testosterone level. Then there are the cases of people who are born intersex, with physical characteristics of both sexes.

Nor will I demand specific rules be enforced in order to "level the playing field" Who is to say precisely how much difference testosterone actually makes to competitiveness. I am content to leave such debate to committees who are better informed as to the scientific ins and outs of human physiology. I do know however that a top female masters cyclist in my neck of the woods can wipe the floor with me because she did the other year going up Michael Gate in Lincoln. That's despite me having been a competitive hill climber myself in my youth, and still boasting a peak power exceeding 1400W as measured on a Wattbike. Whether it was her lighter weight or better conditioning or superior racing bike, who cares, but that cyclist beat me up those cobbles regardless.

We are all different in some way. Sometimes being heavier will be an advantage, sometimes being smaller will be. Be born and living at high altitude is believed to improve oxygen transport for example. Some people have a medical condition that means they don't produce lactic acid in the same way that most of us do, so they don't get the burn we do. Just at what point do we draw the line at which characteristics to control for in competition. Some women who don't have heavy periods could arguably have a competitive advantage over women who do because they lose less blood, and lose less training days each month. Some of us men develop chests which are more 'he-man' than the puny types amongst us, a bit unfair isn't it....?

I'm also aware of the on going issues surrounding trans women using for instance changing rooms, or attending 'women only' swimming sessions. Or transferring to female prisons. Or schoolchildren who are transitioning. There are serious and valid concerns that women have about their safety and privacy. Society needs to have long hard debates about the issues, but debate is NOT about abusing individuals. If an individual that you are complaining about has committed an offence then a court is the place to hold them personally to account for their actions. Does anyone here wish to claim that a trans competitive cyclist has broken the law? State your case if so, what law, what regulation?

If you are abusing an individual, then that is what you are doing, you're not seeking intelligent resolution to an issue. You are getting in the face of someone. A human being. A sentient being with feelings and emotions. What right do you have to do that? Would you like it if someone got in your face down the pub? Of course not. But I feel that some people think that if someone in some way falls into an "other than me" category, then they automatically don't have feelings, don't have rights.

The point remains, we don't have the moral right to wade in and throw abuse at individuals because we don't agree with their lifestyle, or situation, or background or whatever. And when I read through all the posts on this thread, I honestly felt that there were posters who were using it as an opportunity to discriminate against others. If any one person still feels that I am personally attacking them, then maybe they need to consult their own conscience. Maybe they need to examine why they feel they are always under attack when someone else disagrees with their view point.

We have the valued right to freedom of expression in this country unlike in some. That means we can speak out when we see wrong, or promote new ideas. We can go against the crowd and perhaps pathfind to a better tomorrow. We can also contribute to increased intolerance to others, we can make hateful comments, we can champion bigotry over compassion.

Freedom of speech, a two sided sword. Maybe if we abuse that right we will ultimately lose it, maybe if we're not careful a totalitarian regime will seek to divest us of freedom of individual thought.
So I reiterate my previous post:

You have the right to say anything, but it doesn't mean you should.

A graphic purloined of the declared weights of the Tour de France winners to illustrate that there is no clear and consistent relation of weight to cycling success.
Image Attachments
tdf-winner-weight.gif
tdf-winner-weight.gif (11.44 KiB) Viewed 263 times

Postboxer
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Postboxer » 13 Feb 2020, 1:34pm

Now redraw that graph with the axis for weight starting at zero and see what it looks like.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Feb 2020, 2:37pm

Out of curiosity, what it you related weight and height into those figures. Weight per unit height? Would the points be closest to the same figure? I'm 6'5" if I was an elite athlete my peak performance weight would be higher than someone a foot smaller. But say a BMI type of figure might be the same.

I'm really curious as to the true worth of that graph in this debate. Perhaps peak power to weight figures might be better. Compare cisgender women with mtf in the event this lady keeps winning. Or FTP comparison. I wonder if there are any such figures pre- transition too.

It's probably an area worthy of full investigation. Imho elite sport has been operated on the idea of fair competition. It's not fair to women to have them racing against men or clean athletes against those with the best pharmaceutical assistance available. Even kit is looked at. Has there been sufficient study into potential dis-advantages of mtf transitioning on fair competition? Do we know that this lady hasn't got an unfair advantage?

Disabled athletes are able to compete with able bodied once they've met strict performance checks on a case by case basis. That SA double amputee had long series of performance tests before he was allowed to compete. He even had the design of his prosthetics fixed. Actually fixed shorter than he could have got away with. Later athletes got longer prosthetics in relation to height resulting in a legal performance advantage the SA athlete didn't have.

It's politically incorrect to ask mtf to prove transitioning and competing in women's category doesn't give them an unfair advantage. Authorities would be too scared to apply that. Is it discrimination to get mtf to prove no advantage? If it is then doesn't that mean discrimination against disabled is being carried out in athletics?

These are my questions.

If this guy was competing at an equivalent level as a man before transitioning then there would never be so much controversy.

fullupandslowingdown
Posts: 241
Joined: 11 Oct 2007, 5:47pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 13 Feb 2020, 9:10pm

tdf-winner-height.gif


My point is that there doesn't seem to be an automatic advantage in bodyframe size for competition.

But there does seem to be a trend for lower BMI showing in the following graph:

tdf-winner-bmi.gif
tdf-winner-bmi.gif (11.43 KiB) Viewed 190 times



BMI of Tour de France Cyclists
As mentioned above, it is the power to weight ratio that is very important for cyclists, which is maximized by having low body fat levels. The body mass index (BMI), which relates weight to height, is a general indication of body fat levels. The graph of the average BMI of all cyclists from each tour since 1990 shows a clear decrease, a reflection of the decreasing average body weight while the height has not changed - therefore the riders are getting thinner.



https://www.topendsports.com/sport/cycl ... france.htm

One knee jerk reaction to this data might be that men would be at a disadvantage because they have heavier bodies. On the other hand, women normally have higher body fat percentages, which is less useful than higher muscle. Which is why I say, we should leave it to professional sports physiologists to decide how to level the playing field.


Fader, however, told me that she felt that racing against Dr. McKinnon was simply not fair. Dr. McKinnon stands six feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. Fader, by contrast, is 5-foot-5 and weighs 135 pounds. So minutes before the finals were set to start, she pulled out of the competition entirely.
.....
“I’m not blaming Rachel for competing. A lot of people are calling her a cheater, and she’s not a cheater because the current rules allow her to do it legally,” Fader said. “I just don’t believe (in) the current rules.”



I agree, and have never said otherwise, that the sporting authorities need to study the issues closely. One suggestion I saw on another forum was that trans women should compete in their own competition, but I honestly feel that is a) segregation and b) likely to be very limited because although there are a number of trans women around the world, I imagine there are very few who after undergoing reassignment feel the sporting urge to compete, those who like to engage in sport probably will do so but casually out of the glare of intrusive media spotlight. I also note that the physical effects of transitioning are not always straight forward and free from debilitating effect.


“People seem to think that there’s no issue of ‘unfair advantage’ when I lose, but it only seems to be an issue when I win,” Dr. McKinnon said. “I don’t think that’s fair or reasonable.”

She points to her power numbers as further proof that her performances are not an aberration. Her best peak power output was 1,741 watts, which she held for one second during training. Normally, her peak power is in the range of 1,550 watts. By contrast, Fader said her average peak power is 1,350 watts, and she weighs 135 pounds. In terms of pure watts-per-kilogram power, Fader actually has a higher number (21.99 compared to 17.05). I reached out to two elite cycling coaches, and both said that Dr. McKinnon’s power output is consistent with what would be expected from an elite track sprinter of her size. The extra wattage, one coach said, is needed to overcome the greater forces of wind and gravity acting against Dr. McKinnon’s larger body.



https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/c ... non_480285

fullupandslowingdown
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Joined: 11 Oct 2007, 5:47pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 13 Feb 2020, 9:22pm

Postboxer wrote:Now redraw that graph with the axis for weight starting at zero and see what it looks like.


I'd imagine that any riders nearer zero on the weight axis would look either cute, pink and churchillian, or else rather pale and unhealthy....

Changing the axis would make no material difference to that type of graph. It would just mean that to our eyes the data points would seem more closely clumped. As there is a variance of about 20Kg i.e more than double the weight of most racing bikes, I don't see the point in your suggestion.

Postboxer
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Joined: 24 Jul 2013, 5:19pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Postboxer » 13 Feb 2020, 9:38pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:
Postboxer wrote:Now redraw that graph with the axis for weight starting at zero and see what it looks like.


I'd imagine that any riders nearer zero on the weight axis would look either cute, pink and churchillian, or else rather pale and unhealthy....

Changing the axis would make no material difference to that type of graph. It would just mean that to our eyes the data points would seem more closely clumped. As there is a variance of about 20Kg i.e more than double the weight of most racing bikes, I don't see the point in your suggestion.


That is my point, the graph starting at 0 would show that 20kg weight band as rather narrow, within the range of possible weights of humans rather than all the winners being spread out over all possible weights across the full range.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Feb 2020, 8:39am

If I follow you're saying that selection of x axis range can give a misrepresentation of the range of results. As in weight axis set at zero will result in all data points being bunched up near the top of the graph. Whereas the opposite might increase visual significance of small weight differences.

I use that trick too. It often catches people out if they're not too critical or observant.

Still no power to weight figures or peak power or FTP figures? No comparison between mtf and cisgender females?

landsurfer
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Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 14 Feb 2020, 2:27pm

And now the freedom to say that some Transgender people are cheats in sport and to discuss the issue of men and women pretending to be a different gender can be upheld in law ?

From the Telegraph today;

"Police compared to Stasi and Gestapo by judge as he rules they interfered in freedom of speech by investigating 'non crime' trans tweet"

"Holding a copy of George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, he added: "I'm going to continue tweeting, I'm going to continue campaigning and I'm going to continue standing with women in order to secure their sex-based rights.

"This judgment today has told us that we can do that and, if the police come knocking, say: 'Miller v Humberside Police, bugger off!"'
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