Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
fullupandslowingdown
Posts: 477
Joined: 11 Oct 2007, 5:47pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 14 Feb 2020, 4:12pm

Tangled Metal wrote:....
I use that trick too. It often catches people out if they're not too critical or observant.

Still no power to weight figures or peak power or FTP figures? No comparison between mtf and cisgender females?


Sorry, I'm just reporting on what I've found, I'm not set up to perform laboratory performance testing :idea:

I feel that wanting a graph that is only showing statistical data anyway, and not correlative relationships between two variables, to start at zero for weight is pointless. Real world adults who are athletically competitive generally fall within a certain range, and the graph shows that range for TdF winners, to be roughly 60Kg to 80Kg. The point of the graph was to show that winners haven't been of one particular weight, but rather within a range of weights, weights which would not by themselves, exclude women from appearing in the dataset. The graph (ic) suggests that being heavier is not an automatic advantage.

I wonder if people will next complain that we should also scrap the decibel as a measure of sound level because that is not linear scale? I don't know about you, but at school in mathematics, I was taught to select the scales on a graph axis according to the results that I wished to be shown. It is entirely legitimate as long as the scales are labelled clearly (tick or you wouldn't have noticed to comment about...) and appropriate, which I assert they are. Extending the scale down to zero would have as much value as extending it up to 200Kg. No one in the last 75 years under the weight of 50Kg has won the Tour de France, no one over the weight of 100Kg has won it.

It almost feels that if someone could successfully attack (my) science, then that would somehow support their stance on the outline post, and damage whatever they think is mine.... I guess I should accept that if as yet, the international athletic experts can't decide for once and for all on such an scientifically complex and emotive topic, then a bunch of ignorant self righteous navel gazing twits on a cycling forum are hardly likely to have a superior resolution. Thank god for the freedom of speech :lol:

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 14 Feb 2020, 5:08pm

fullupandslowingdown wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:....
I use that trick too. It often catches people out if they're not too critical or observant.

Still no power to weight figures or peak power or FTP figures? No comparison between mtf and cisgender females?



There is a group on here that often demand "Evidence" for any comment that is made that they disagree with .... the cries of evidence grow louder and louder in proportion to the amount of disagreement felt ... But they will never offer "Evidence" to substantiate their ownpoint of view ... alledgley ....
The Road Goes On Forever

alexnharvey
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby alexnharvey » 14 Feb 2020, 5:15pm

Yeah, [rude word removed] scientists.

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 19 Feb 2020, 6:38am

fullupandslowingdown wrote:I am mindful as I write this of the case of the sis woman, Caster Semenya who has to fight for the right to compete as a woman just because she has a naturally high testosterone level. Then there are the cases of people who are born intersex, with physical characteristics of both sexes.


Caster Semenya is not a 'cis' woman. Caster Semenya lacks one of the three isoenzymes of 5-alpha reductase found in the human body, namely 5-ARD type 2, which is mostly expressed in the prostate. This results in a variant phenotype, including internal testes, normal high-male testosterone levels, and ambiguous or female-appearing external genitals. This condition is always assigned male at birth if diagnosed at that time. Given the presence of functioning testes, a material androgenising effect, and likely viable sperm, in biological terms Caster Semenya is very clearly male.

Nor will I demand specific rules be enforced in order to "level the playing field" Who is to say precisely how much difference testosterone actually makes to competitiveness. I am content to leave such debate to committees who are better informed as to the scientific ins and outs of human physiology. I do know however that a top female masters cyclist in my neck of the woods can wipe the floor with me because she did the other year going up Michael Gate in Lincoln. That's despite me having been a competitive hill climber myself in my youth, and still boasting a peak power exceeding 1400W as measured on a Wattbike. Whether it was her lighter weight or better conditioning or superior racing bike, who cares, but that cyclist beat me up those cobbles regardless.


Not sure what your point is here. The difference between a male elite and a female elite athlete is from 10% and up depending on the sport. That's much smaller than the difference between an elite athlete and a non-elite one. However that 10% is enough that if you mix the 'male' and 'female' pools then you will find very many 'male' athletes able to beat ALL the 'female' athletes, and ZERO 'female' athletes able to beat all the male ones.

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 19 Feb 2020, 6:48am

fullupandslowingdown wrote:https://www.topendsports.com/sport/cycl ... france.htm

One knee jerk reaction to this data might be that men would be at a disadvantage because they have heavier bodies. On the other hand, women normally have higher body fat percentages, which is less useful than higher muscle. Which is why I say, we should leave it to professional sports physiologists to decide how to level the playing field.


Lol.

It is not that hard to check the facts before posting.

There is no inherent disadvantage to having a heavier body as long as it comes with more muscle (which it obviously does), indeed if you have a bike of UCI weight limit of 6.9kg, then it follows that, say a 70kg male rider, is going to be advantaged over a 50kg female rider, since the bike is less of a load relative to their weight.


That's before you get to the fact that men's bodies have more muscle even for the same body mass, which is even more of an advantage. The male elite athlete body fat % would be fatally thin for a woman.

I posted about this in a cycling context here

viewtopic.php?t=128443&start=15#p1330719


And whatever you might do in terms of taking cross-sex hormones only brings the men and the women to somewhere in the middle of male and female. The doped, effectively transgender, Eastern European athletes of the 80s did not beat the men, only beat fellow women.

This study shows the effects of 12 months of cross-sex hormones:

https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/ ... 37gp.13.05

As you can see after a year, the MTF still had more muscle than the FTMs.

And that's with cross-sex hormones - that is biological males taking oestrogen, and biological females taking testosterone. In the world of sport the biological females (aka 'women') are not allowed to take testosterone, and the biological males competing with them as transgender are not required to take oestrogen, merely to suppress testosterone levels. So even going much further than is required to compete in competitive sport, it's obvious that MTF transgender competitors have a big advantage over biological females.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 8:34am

fullupandslowingdown wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:....
I use that trick too. It often catches people out if they're not too critical or observant.

Still no power to weight figures or peak power or FTP figures? No comparison between mtf and cisgender females?


Sorry, I'm just reporting on what I've found, I'm not set up to perform laboratory performance testing :idea:

I feel that wanting a graph that is only showing statistical data anyway, and not correlative relationships between two variables, to start at zero for weight is pointless. Real world adults who are athletically competitive generally fall within a certain range, and the graph shows that range for TdF winners, to be roughly 60Kg to 80Kg. The point of the graph was to show that winners haven't been of one particular weight, but rather within a range of weights, weights which would not by themselves, exclude women from appearing in the dataset. The graph (ic) suggests that being heavier is not an automatic advantage.

I wonder if people will next complain that we should also scrap the decibel as a measure of sound level because that is not linear scale? I don't know about you, but at school in mathematics, I was taught to select the scales on a graph axis according to the results that I wished to be shown. It is entirely legitimate as long as the scales are labelled clearly (tick or you wouldn't have noticed to comment about...) and appropriate, which I assert they are. Extending the scale down to zero would have as much value as extending it up to 200Kg. No one in the last 75 years under the weight of 50Kg has won the Tour de France, no one over the weight of 100Kg has won it.

It almost feels that if someone could successfully attack (my) science, then that would somehow support their stance on the outline post, and damage whatever they think is mine.... I guess I should accept that if as yet, the international athletic experts can't decide for once and for all on such an scientifically complex and emotive topic, then a bunch of ignorant self righteous navel gazing twits on a cycling forum are hardly likely to have a superior resolution. Thank god for the freedom of speech :lol:

It's pointless to show a feature of TdF winners that tbf has little correlation to physical ability in a grand tour. Power and power to weight figures have a good correlation to sporting ability in GTs aiui. Why don't you plot waist measurements, head size or any other measure related to shape/ size of cyclists? They probably have the same amount of relevance. Choosing relevant metrics to study is very much part of science.

As to consensus among international experts goes then I doubt there's been enough research into the matter to gain agreement. Then there's no process where there's an assessment of whether there is seen unfair advantage.

For example there's a process where double leg amputees can qualify for competing with able bodied athletes in sprint disciplines. It's based on vast amounts of sports science and engineering relating to the issue of whether the prosthetics give an unfair advantage. There's even trials where the athlete is put through their paces. Then that athlete then has a fixed set of prosthetics design and size that he's allowed to race in. Once that qualification is in place they can compete but not until then.

There's little rigour in how mtf athletes are allowed to compete. A simple acceptance of their legal status as a female is enough. Sports is about fair competition. Isn't it fair to prove on a case by case basis that it's fair? Even better if the research is done a way to universally do that is better. A testosterone limit has been one but that's seems more a use of science to get a political win rather than getting a good solution.

Btw one point I have. What would you say about a person who chooses to compete when there is a strong belief or suspicion they have an unfair advantage. Imho any win I gain in sports (actually very unlikely to happen but it's for illustration purposes) is worthless if there's a valid doubt I'd competed fairly.

Insulting posters who are only questioning the relevance of what you post is the sign of an internet warrior who can't leave an online discussion without winning it. So this "twit" is going to engage with adults from now on.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 8:41am

landsurfer wrote:
fullupandslowingdown wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:....
I use that trick too. It often catches people out if they're not too critical or observant.

Still no power to weight figures or peak power or FTP figures? No comparison between mtf and cisgender females?



There is a group on here that often demand "Evidence" for any comment that is made that they disagree with .... the cries of evidence grow louder and louder in proportion to the amount of disagreement felt ... But they will never offer "Evidence" to substantiate their ownpoint of view ... alledgley ....

Sorry but was that a point made to me? I was really pointing out that weight isn't a good measure for determining cycling prowess in elite levels. Evidence was provided in weight based form for TdF winners. Is it wrong to question the relevance? There's a quotation about quality of conclusions related to quality of data used. I can't remember it but it's relevant to the weight data posted.

Isn't evidence a legal term? Doesn't this issue require data to support or contradict theories?

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 19 Feb 2020, 10:22am

Tangled Metal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
fullupandslowingdown wrote:



There is a group on here that often demand "Evidence" for any comment that is made that they disagree with .... the cries of evidence grow louder and louder in proportion to the amount of disagreement felt ... But they will never offer "Evidence" to substantiate their ownpoint of view ... alledgley ....

Sorry but was that a point made to me? I was really pointing out that weight isn't a good measure for determining cycling prowess in elite levels. Evidence was provided in weight based form for TdF winners. Is it wrong to question the relevance? There's a quotation about quality of conclusions related to quality of data used. I can't remember it but it's relevant to the weight data posted.

Isn't evidence a legal term? Doesn't this issue require data to support or contradict theories?


Not aimed at you at all ...............and i agree with your point ....
My issue is with the OP Posting; "Transgender woman wins cycling championship", it should read "Man wins Women's cycling championship" ....
The Road Goes On Forever

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Feb 2020, 10:26am

landsurfer wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:

There is a group on here that often demand "Evidence" for any comment that is made that they disagree with .... the cries of evidence grow louder and louder in proportion to the amount of disagreement felt ... But they will never offer "Evidence" to substantiate their ownpoint of view ... alledgley ....

Sorry but was that a point made to me? I was really pointing out that weight isn't a good measure for determining cycling prowess in elite levels. Evidence was provided in weight based form for TdF winners. Is it wrong to question the relevance? There's a quotation about quality of conclusions related to quality of data used. I can't remember it but it's relevant to the weight data posted.

Isn't evidence a legal term? Doesn't this issue require data to support or contradict theories?


Not aimed at you at all ...............and i agree with your point ....

Ok, cross post I suppose. Good to know.

pete75
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby pete75 » 22 Feb 2020, 10:43am

The easiest way to determine if someone can compete in a particular sporting event is a simple chromosome test. What other valid determinant of gender is there? There are cases of XX men and XY females but these are extremely rare.

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 22 Feb 2020, 2:37pm

pete75 wrote:The easiest way to determine if someone can compete in a particular sporting event is a simple chromosome test. What other valid determinant of gender is there? There are cases of XX men and XY females but these are extremely rare.


Well, not exactly. The Y chromosome is essentially a subset of the X chromosome, and the sex-determining region (SRY) from the Y chromosome can get crossed over to the X chromosome during sperm meiosis, resulting in XX males (46,XX SRY+). It is this SRY gene that was tested for successive Olympics, rather than the Y chromosome itself, however the problem was that there were athletes who were for example, 46,XY SRY+ but androgen-insensitive, and appeared to be female but may have experienced amenorrhea, and are in some sense male and in some sense female.

These athletes are very overrepresented in female sport, but they don't overwhelmingly dominate. The problem was from an individual rights perspective you can't it seems just exclude people, so these athletes with XY chromosomes would be cleared to compete by doctors and lawyers because you had to prove that they weren't female, given that on a social level they had been raised female and it might be the first they learned of their genetic makeup was as an adult athlete.

This is different from say Caster Semenya who is fully androgen-sensitive and has a massive advantage over normal women (who are also androgen-sensitive, but produce little testosterone), in producing 20-60x more testosterone than any normal woman.

Anyway there are in fact high numbers of people with XY chromosomes in female sport, but I don't think anyone is in a huge hurry to ban them just for the hell of it.

See for example https://alchetron.com/Maria-Jos%C3%A9-M ... ati%C3%B1o

As long as you don't have obviously masculine athletes such as Caster Semenya who also have male genetics and male hormone levels, then the overrepresentation of athletes with DSDs isn't a particular concern because it's jarring when you get big hefty males winning female sport. This is why the likes of the subject of this thread, who looks and behaves like a man, present an immediate concern, because when someone has normal male genetics and has matured as a male, they are not going to be able to undo that to fairly compete against women.

So the chromosomal testing is really a red herring - the issue is simply that there is nothing stopping any given 'man' deciding that they are now a woman and suppressing their testosterone to a level not far below male levels, and they will of course continue to look male.

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 22 Feb 2020, 3:25pm

Let’s not mix someone like Caster Semenya up with trans women though. Caster is a biological ‘oddity’ absolutely not her fault, and there’s nothing she can do about it. Playing with the cards you’re dealt, is absolutely fine ( in my book ) and boo hoo, to anyone who can’t handle it, loading the deck artificially ( MTF trans athletes in particular) isn’t on though.

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 22 Feb 2020, 4:48pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Let’s not mix someone like Caster Semenya up with trans women though. Caster is a biological ‘oddity’ absolutely not her fault, and there’s nothing she can do about it. Playing with the cards you’re dealt, is absolutely fine ( in my book ) and boo hoo, to anyone who can’t handle it, loading the deck artificially ( MTF trans athletes in particular) isn’t on though.


Well there are parents now who are raising male children as female from the age of 2 or 3. It's Munchausens in some cases, I have no doubt. Anyway while it's true that there's a difference between someone who transitions as an adult because of their feelings, and someone who has an inherent biological condition, you can't really use the 'cards you're dealt' argument, in that in a developed healthcare system, Caster Semenya would have been raised as male. We know and understand Caster Semenya's condition pretty well, so it's really the case on an objective level that Caster Semenya is a partially unvirilised male who was raised as female. The latter part of that (the upbringing as female) is to my mind not really relevant in that to whatever extent male and female are different categories, they should be biological categories and not social ones.