How would past champions compete today

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
Bonefishblues
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Nov 2020, 8:48pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
hamster wrote:The attitude to hydration nowadays compared to the 1960s is a huge difference. Essentially all the pros ended up racing dehydrated - as a result they would have put in far better times today.


Interested in this - any more info/explanation?


If your hydration drops too far, your nutrition can’t work efficiently / effectively, and your performance drops off as a result.

Yes, I understand that :)

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 10 Nov 2020, 8:53pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Interested in this - any more info/explanation?


If your hydration drops too far, your nutrition can’t work efficiently / effectively, and your performance drops off as a result.

Yes, I understand that :)

So what he’s saying is, the old pro’s would be adjusted to race underhydrated, and if they raced now, adjusted as they were, but properly hydrated as now, they would perform really well. I don’t think it works like that though myself.

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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Nov 2020, 9:01pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
If your hydration drops too far, your nutrition can’t work efficiently / effectively, and your performance drops off as a result.

Yes, I understand that :)

So what he’s saying is, the old pro’s would be adjusted to race underhydrated, and if they raced now, adjusted as they were, but properly hydrated as now, they would perform really well. I don’t think it works like that though myself.

...but why was that the prevailing ethos? I get that we learn things medically, but surely much easier to simply stay hydrated, that's not any sort of revelation.

Jdsk
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Jdsk » 10 Nov 2020, 9:04pm

It's clearly quite complex... overhydration is now quite common in competitors, and can have nasty effects. Probably an interactive combination of fear of dehydration and promotion of commercial drinks.

Jonathan

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 11 Nov 2020, 2:30am

Jdsk wrote:It's clearly quite complex... overhydration is now quite common in competitors, and can have nasty effects. Probably an interactive combination of fear of dehydration and promotion of commercial drinks.

Jonathan


Hyponatremia is a nasty effect of over hydration, but a lot of the modern drinks formulations are designed to keep the salt levels correct.

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fausto copy
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby fausto copy » 20 Nov 2020, 4:35pm

How about giving the modern riders a few years wartime service or conscription, having them carry a couple of spare tyres on their shoulders, fix their own bikes riding over unsurfaced roads, and let them drink whatever they could find in the local bars.
See how they'd cope then. :wink:

pete75
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby pete75 » 23 Nov 2020, 4:24pm

How many years did it take modern riders to break the Merckx hour record on a similar bike? I think Boardman trained for a year to do it as well whereas Eddy just bunged it on the end of a normal racing season and his final distance was reduced because he rode too hard at the start in order to break several shorter distance records.
Are modern riders actually much faster? For example second fastest average speed for Paris Roubaix was Peter Post in 1964 and fourth fastest Rik Van Steenbergen in 1948. Merckx won Liege Bastogne Liege at an average of 38.25 km/hour in 1975, Primoz Roglic won in 2020 av 39.33 km/hour, 2019 winning average was 38.63. Charlie Gaul's time on the Ventoux when he won the tour in 1958 wasn't bettered for 31 years. In Gaul's day some of the road was cobbled and most of it badly surfaced. Cycle technology has meant to have improved by quite a bit and gives modern riders a speed advantage. They also have better performance enhancements.
Last edited by pete75 on 23 Nov 2020, 4:28pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby pete75 » 23 Nov 2020, 4:25pm

Jdsk wrote:It's clearly quite complex... overhydration is now quite common in competitors, and can have nasty effects. Probably an interactive combination of fear of dehydration and promotion of commercial drinks.

Jonathan


Riders have a lot of drinks passed to them because they get a tow from the team car every time they take a bidon.

Jdsk
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby Jdsk » 23 Nov 2020, 4:33pm

I haven't seen any reports of neurological harm from dilutional hyponatraemia in professional cycling... anyone?

The first two cases that we saw were from an Ultimate Frisbee competition and a martial arts tournament.

The observations that pinned down what was happening were from a London Marathon.

Jonathan

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TrevA
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby TrevA » 23 Nov 2020, 8:00pm

Alf Engers attended a film show at our local cinema and did a Q&A afterwards. I asked him the question of how did he think he would get on today, given the advances in aerodynamics, training and nutrition. He refused to answer, saying that it’s impossible to compare riders from different generations. I still think he would have done very well.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

pete75
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby pete75 » 23 Nov 2020, 8:57pm

TrevA wrote:Alf Engers attended a film show at our local cinema and did a Q&A afterwards. I asked him the question of how did he think he would get on today, given the advances in aerodynamics, training and nutrition. He refused to answer, saying that it’s impossible to compare riders from different generations. I still think he would have done very well.


Mike Hailwood, who retired from top level motorcycle racing in 1967, used to say that when asked how he compared to his successors riding in the seventies. In 1978 he went back and rode the Formula One TT. Not only did he win he set a new lap record for the TT circuit.

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RickH
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby RickH » 25 Nov 2020, 10:04pm

fausto copy wrote:How about giving the modern riders a few years wartime service or conscription, having them carry a couple of spare tyres on their shoulders, fix their own bikes riding over unsurfaced roads, and let them drink whatever they could find in the local bars.
See how they'd cope then. :wink:

The wartime service or conscription may be a little difficult, but the rest sounds a bit like modern events such as the Transcontinental. Or some of the big gravel races such as Unbound Gravel (the race formerly known as Dirty Kanza) in Kansas, USA.

thirdcrank
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Nov 2020, 10:22pm

The Fausto original, AKA Fausto Coppi rather than copy apparently spent some time as a PoW of the Allies and IIRC passed the time as a barber (although not of Seville.)

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fausto copy
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby fausto copy » 26 Nov 2020, 6:38pm

Exactly and look what happened to him. :(

pete75
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Re: How would past champions compete today

Postby pete75 » 27 Nov 2020, 2:31pm

RickH wrote:
fausto copy wrote:How about giving the modern riders a few years wartime service or conscription, having them carry a couple of spare tyres on their shoulders, fix their own bikes riding over unsurfaced roads, and let them drink whatever they could find in the local bars.
See how they'd cope then. :wink:

The wartime service or conscription may be a little difficult, but the rest sounds a bit like modern events such as the Transcontinental. Or some of the big gravel races such as Unbound Gravel (the race formerly known as Dirty Kanza) in Kansas, USA.


I wonder how many would have the moral courage of Gino Bartali who smuggled false identity documents etc to help Jews avoid capture during the war. He even hid a Jewish family in his own house.


https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... no-bartali