Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

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Anthony.R.Brown
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Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

This Thread is about how Modern Cycling Technology has increased the TT Record Speeds,and reduced the Times.

OK there have always been slight improvements over the years but nothing like lately,regarding Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmets,are the most noticeable Advantages.

And if we look at how the Rules have been changed for The World Hour Cycling Record at the Wiki link below then I am suggesting something similar for The Normal Road TT Records.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour_record

I am sure that anyone reading the Title of this Thread is curious to know what the 7 km+ / 8 Minute+ Advantage! is :)

So I will explain and just to say that the Formula numbers I am using are only an example it would have to be worked out more exact! so please don't quote me by saying that or this is wrong,it's mainly about the idea.

For the example I would like to use the The World Hour Cycling Records to show how the Modern Technology 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage! works.

Eddy Merckx set a new hour record at 49.431 km using a Normal Track bike,and so did Chris Boardman using a Normal Track bike with a distance of 49.441 km

So what we now need is a time for the same Hour Record using a Track bike with all the Modern Technology,and luckily we have that with Chris Boardman which is ideal :)

And with a distance of 56.375 km this is where the 7 km+ Advantage comes in,then what we need for the New Time Trialling Records Rules is this converted to Minutes Advantage and that's where the 8 Minute+ Advantage comes in,by using the Formula below.

Because the Hour Record was done in exactly 1 Hour if we divide 60 Minutes by the 7 km Advantage we get = 8.57142 Minutes :)

So my proposal is to use this Formula to adjust all of the Time Trail Records for everyone that has used the Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet.

And for the 8.57142 Minutes it can be broke down into where the Advantage is shown below... again as an example like...

Aerodynamic Carbon Frames = 3 Minutes

Tri Bars = 1.9

Carbon Disk Wheels = 1.4

Tri Disk Front Wheels 1.2

Aerodynamic Helmet = 1



{MTAF} Formula 28/02/2021 ...

Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet.

Below is The Cycling TT Modern Technology Advantage Formula... {MTAF}

A = Based on (Chris Boardman using a {MTAF} Track bike with a distance of 56.375 km)

B = and (Chris Boardman using a Normal Track bike with a distance of 49.441 km)

C = The Advantage difference in Km

D : 1 Hour/60 Minutes

E : The Advantage in Minutes

(A : 56.375 km) - (B : 49.441 km) = (C : 6.934 km)

(D : 60) / (C : 6.934 km) = (E : 8.65301413326)

Then...

(E : 8.65301413326) / (D : 60) = 0.144216902221 (for every Minute a rider,rides using a {MTAF} bike


Example if a rider rides for 60 Minutes then we calculate...

60 x 0.144216902221) = 8.65301413326 Minutes Advantage.


Below is a Classic 25 Mile TT Record converted using {MTAF}

1978 A.R Engers Unity CC 49.24 (There are No Adjustments made to Alfs time because he never used the Modern Technology)

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/0 ... -its-easy/

Compaired to the current Record holder..

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58 (So for this time he used all the Modern Technology and we must do the {MTAF} calculation...

(42.58 x 0.144216902221) = 6.14075569653 Resulting in a True time of (42.58 + 6.14075569653) = 48.7207556965 (48.27)

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2018/05/1 ... cki-may18/


Now I believe this is Correct! and makes M.Bialoblocki's time better than A.R Engers shown below...

A.R Engers 49.24 - (48.27) = 0.97



But! :)

What time could Alf have done if he used all the (Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet)

49.24 x 0.144216902221 = 7.10124026531 Minutes Advantage

49.24 - 7.10124026531 = 42.1387597347 (42.13) for a 25 mile TT

Which compared to the current Record holder below...

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42:58

42.58 - 42.13 = 0.45

Makes King Alf the True 25 mile TT Record holder!

.......................................................................................................


Below I will show I.S Cammish 50 TT compaired to M.Bialoblocki using {MTAF}

1983 I.S Cammish GS Strada 1:39.51 There are No Adjustments made to Ian's time because he never used the Modern Technology)

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 1:30.31 (So for this time he used all the Modern Technology and we must do the {MTAF} calculation...

(1:30.31 (90.31) x  0.144216902221 ) = 13.0242284395 Resulting in a True time of (1:30.31 +13.0242284395 ) = 1: 43.3342284395 (1:43.33)

And again I believe this is Correct! and makes I.S Cammish's time better than M.Bialoblocki shown below...

(1:43.33) - I.S Cammish 1:39.51 = 3.82







Anthony.R.Brown 08/03/2021

Former Chelmer CC
Last edited by Anthony.R.Brown on 12 Mar 2021, 11:49am, edited 3 times in total.
Postboxer
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Postboxer »

Interesting idea, though I think there may be problems using only Chris Boardman as a reference point, consider two riders on the standard track bike, rider A is smaller, less powerful but more aerodynamic, rider B is larger, more powerful but less aerodynamic, they both have the same PB for the hour, ride B's power making up for his greater aerodynamic losses. Now put them both on a modern bike, would they both set the same time?
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Postboxer wrote:Interesting idea, though I think there may be problems using only Chris Boardman as a reference point, consider two riders on the standard track bike, rider A is smaller, less powerful but more aerodynamic, rider B is larger, more powerful but less aerodynamic, they both have the same PB for the hour, ride B's power making up for his greater aerodynamic losses. Now put them both on a modern bike, would they both set the same time?


Hi

The {MTAF} is done by the same rider under the same conditions,so it makes it sound! :)



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Brucey
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Brucey »

nice idea but when riding the road, weather and traffic can make a huge difference too. So it isn't an entirely level playing field regardless of the bike. IME if you ride the same course multiple times you can expect your 'outlier' times to be up to ~10% better or worse than your average.

Local to me most of the 'fast courses' have been withdrawn and riders are more likely to ride on what would have been called 'sporting courses' in times past.

IIRC Engers rode much of his record breaking ride in the RH lane of a busy dual carriageway, thus gaining maximum drafting advantage from the traffic.

cheer
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freeflow
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by freeflow »

It seems to me that the OP post merely confirms my suspicion that time trialling is a pointless exercise. If you have to use equations to adjust times due to variations in rider size, equipment or riding conditions, you might as well just sit people on a static trainer and measure the total power output over a specified time. The results would be just as meaningful (less).
Boring_Username
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Boring_Username »

freeflow wrote: you might as well just sit people on a static trainer and measure the total power output over a specified time.


Also known as - Zwift racing
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Brucey wrote:nice idea but when riding the road, weather and traffic can make a huge difference too. So it isn't an entirely level playing field regardless of the bike. IME if you ride the same course multiple times you can expect your 'outlier' times to be up to ~10% better or worse than your average.

Local to me most of the 'fast courses' have been withdrawn and riders are more likely to ride on what would have been called 'sporting courses' in times past.

IIRC Engers rode much of his record breaking ride in the RH lane of a busy dual carriageway, thus gaining maximum drafting advantage from the traffic.

cheer



Again The {MTAF} is done by the same rider under the same conditions,so it makes it sound! :)
Anything that happens in other races is dependant on the conditions,but if it's the same rider then they will have those conditions!

The {MTAF} makes the calculations for an equal situation,of course you will always get a TT done in perfect conditions and imperfect conditions,but in the long run the {MTAF} will find the True best times!


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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Below is some proof of just how much Modern Technology helps a rider to go faster!

The MODERN UCI STANDARD is what riders are using to break today's official Records.

Taken from the Video Graeme Obree, Athlete or Genius?



Image





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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Aero data shows effects of banning super tuck and forearm time trial positions
Data analyses the aero savings afforded by the soon-to-be-banned position...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... ons-490657





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TrevA
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by TrevA »

Brucey wrote:
IIRC Engers rode much of his record breaking ride in the RH lane of a busy dual carriageway, thus gaining maximum drafting advantage from the traffic.

cheer


As did Bialoblocki. On his first breaking of the 25 record, he was disqualified for constantly crossing the centre line of the dual carriageway. Also, MB’s record was on the Welsh course that starts at the top of a mountain and goes downhill for the first 8 miles. It doesn’t climb back up the mountain near the end, but finishes in the valley, about a mile as the crow flies, from the start.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

TrevA wrote:
Brucey wrote:
IIRC Engers rode much of his record breaking ride in the RH lane of a busy dual carriageway, thus gaining maximum drafting advantage from the traffic.

cheer


As did Bialoblocki. On his first breaking of the 25 record, he was disqualified for constantly crossing the centre line of the dual carriageway. Also, MB’s record was on the Welsh course that starts at the top of a mountain and goes downhill for the first 8 miles. It doesn’t climb back up the mountain near the end, but finishes in the valley, about a mile as the crow flies, from the start.


Exactly! :)



Image

What is interesting about the article above...

It says Alf could have gone four to five minutes faster using Modern Technology if he rode on the same course the R25/3H,as the current record holder Marcin Bialoblocki :smile:

Alf himself said the course is one to two minutes faster,than the E72 where he rode and broke the 50 minute barrier.



So let's say the article is correct that the R25/3H is five minutes faster because of Modern Technology,and that Alf is correct that the course is two minutes faster,then we end up with an almost identical calculation of 7 Minutes Advantage :smile: as to how fast Alf could have gone,using {MTAF} compaired to M.Bialoblocki shown below and at the beginning of this thread.



Below is the {MTAF} doing just that...

1978 A.R Engers Unity CC 49.24 - E72

49.24 x 0.144216902221 = 7.10124026531 Minutes Advantage

49.24 - 7.10124026531 = 42.1387597347 (42.13) for a 25 mile TT



Which compared to the current Record holder below...

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58 R25/3H – 11/09/2016

42.58 - 42.13 = 0.45

Makes King Alf the True 25 mile TT Record holder! :smile:
thelawnet
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by thelawnet »

There are far too many decimal places in your equations, it's making my teeth itch.

Since the power required to overcome wind resistance is proportional to the square of speed, while the coefficient of drag is a linear quantity, it follows that whatever reduction in drag you get needs to be adjusted for the increased wind resistance it overcomes. So when you go from 45 to 48kph, which is 6.7% faster, then roughly (ignoring the rolling resistance, which becomes less significant as you go up) the extra power, assuming the same bike, position, clothes etc. required is 14%

People are stronger, better nourished, better fed, better trained and records must fall. Improvements in times based on using a slightly unorthodox bike are fine in that the whole thing is based on finding advantages that are somewhat artificial, like a nice dual carriageway or a following wind or what have you.

If you want records to be comparable then you have to go inside but even there clothes, track smoothness, tyres, bike, etc. should give advantages for newer attempts.

I don't think many people take the time trial records seriously for this reason, in that professional cycling is either a tactical race against others with no need to achieve records, or it is done in controlled circumstances inside. If they wanted to throw a bit of money at the pros could do a better job, but there isn't a lot of point, so it's something for amateurs to have a go at on their frankentime trial bikes. And why not
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Jdsk »

thelawnet wrote:Since the power required to overcome wind resistance is proportional to the square of speed...

The drag force goes up as the square, the power as the cube.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28physics%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance#Air_drag

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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by mattsccm »

Interesting idea. Surely though, to make it valid, we should base everything on hobby horse speeds? Otherwise just how do we decide a valid cut off point for technology? These new fangled inflatable tyres are cheating surely?
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

People are forgetting that the {MTAF} is based on the same rider under the same conditions! so it's a more than a fair calculation as to just how much of an advantage Modern Technology has!

Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet.

Below is The Cycling TT Modern Technology Advantage Formula... {MTAF}

A = Based on (Chris Boardman using a {MTAF} Track bike with a distance of 56.375 km)

B = and (Chris Boardman using a Normal Track bike with a distance of 49.441 km)

C = The Advantage difference in Km

D : 1 Hour/60 Minutes

E : The Advantage in Minutes

(A : 56.375 km) - (B : 49.441 km) = (C : 6.934 km)

(D : 60) / (C : 6.934 km) = (E : 8.65301413326)

Then...

(E : 8.65301413326) / (D : 60) = 0.144216902221 (for every Minute a rider,rides using a {MTAF} bike

Example if a rider rides for 60 Minutes then we calculate...

60 x 0.144216902221 = 8.65301413326 Minutes Advantage.
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