Mick F wrote: Froomy? Dunno, but if he has a stress issue like me and his asthma is stress related like mine, no doubt he's squirting it lots. I have some sympathy for him.
He is a pro athlete backed by apparently the best medical science in the peloton and he just squirts a few extra, being double over is not a few
I wouldn't know if my wee sample would show me having Ventoin or not. My bet would be that it would, and I'd also say that everybody is different. If I take a few squirts of Ventolin and then tested, and you did the same, would our figures be the same?
Vorpal wrote:Anticipating need is part of managing symptoms for many asthma sufferers. My dad is heavily affected by pollution, so he takes a couple of puffs before he leaves the house. He doesn't wait until the pollution is actually bothering him. And why should he? He knows what's going to happen. He can, at least to some extent prevent symptoms by using his inhaler before they occur.
I thought preventer inhalers were the brown ones and they contained something else? Not that Froome is allowed anything other than salbutamol (blue inhaler) without a TUE anyway.
People are tyrpically given different medication for daily preventive care (preventers) and symptom treatment during an asthma attack. That doesn't mean that one type of medication can only be used preventively and another can only be used against immediate symptoms. It's only that one may be more effective administered one way than another. They are prescribed according to the needs of the patient. Froome has more limitiations that way than many people.
ianrobo wrote:Wider question is do you believe he has asthma ? Many think it is totally made up and amazing how his performance after taking it so damn good.
Now if his condition was so bad he needed so much then he was unfit to ride surely ? My mum in law has asthma and two puffs is for here struggling, he had arguably TEN time that ,,,
It doesn't matter what I believe. His asthma is between him and his medical specialist. As for 'if it was so bad', exercise induced asthma is different to the sort most people think about. It doesn't necessarily leave people gasping on the floor for breath. He could have lived with it for many years without knowing that he had asthma. For many people, the main symptoms are a cough ar sniffles, often *after* exercise. Sufferers blame the way they feel on the exercise itself, not realising that the exercise has actually caused them to be less able to intake oxygen. Some people do have the 'gasping for breath' kind of symptoms, but it seems less common with exercise induced asthma.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Tangled Metal wrote:In answer to Paulactic I can say there are two classes of inhaler, preventer inhalers you take before activities likely to trigger an attack salbutamol isn't one of these and doesn't work in the same way. Salbutamol gives immediate relief and taking it half an hour before an attack is likely doesn't really give you any benefit. That's been my experience. It is a wonderful drug though for when you have an attack. It acts fast and brings your breathing back to a more comfortable level and clears phlegm too which is one of the symptoms of my asthma. It's also a safe drug that you can take puffs a lot during a bad day, not that I have needed to.
Why then does he take it before the event?
Froome said,
I eat breakfast before a long race," he replied. "Is that not boosting my performance? If I don't eat I won't have any energy; if I don't have my inhaler before a really big effort I'm probably not going to be able to breathe very well. I know I'm not going to breathe very well."
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life
That's kind of my experience of asthma. The gp never said it was EIA but it's funny how I always got it bad within 10 minutes of ending my exercise and it lasted 15-20 minutes after it started. Two puffs of salbutamol as soon as I stopped exercising and the symptoms weren't as strong.
Now I get attacks at other times. Usually they're coughing fits due to phlegm and mucus in the airways that I just can't clear. Two salbutamol puffs and I'm breathing close to normal again. I really can't express strongly enough what a relief salbutamol is when I need it and my asthma isn't bad by any stretch.
I could get by without it. I did for 40 years plus of my life. What got me to the gp was work colleagues who were getting annoyed by my coughing fits telling me it wasn't normal and I needed to see someone about it. That got me worried. After one very bad night when my breathing difficulties were keeping me awake. I booked a gp appointment. Best thing I did. BTW on that really bad night I ended up taking a lemsip and antihistamines in desperation. The antihistamines kind of helped Interestingly enough but nothing like salbutamol.
The question I have is why the arbitrary limit on urine concentration? What is the justification behind it? Is it just a judgement of someone in power based on the evidence they've reviewed. Is that evidence current and valid? Is there science behind the limit? I think there is but they are very much aware of its limitations hence the AAF protocols that allow time for testing to clear the athlete of any potential wrongdoing accusation that's not valid.
Paulatic wrote:Why then does he take it before the event?
Froome said,
I eat breakfast before a long race," he replied. "Is that not boosting my performance? If I don't eat I won't have any energy; if I don't have my inhaler before a really big effort I'm probably not going to be able to breathe very well. I know I'm not going to breathe very well."
Slabutamol is a bronchodilator, which means that for most asthma sufferers, it is most effective as a reliever. However, my understanding is that for people with exercise induced asthma (especially that which is caused by bronchial spasms), it is used as a preventer. People who take it for exercise induced asthma are recommended to begin 15 to 20 minutes before exercise.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
When is that big push he's talking about? Before the start or partway up an important climb?
Also taking salbutamol before the race could mean he's having an attack before the race hence he's taking it on response to a medical need. So you know whether that is the case or not?
I took it for while before I started riding. It had little effect for me most of the time. However I read new to asthma so didn't recognise early symptoms. In those early days I was having attacks start a lot and not just through exercise. When I first started taking them I seemed to get a benefit by taking it before setting off. The reason must have been because I was starting with the asthma early into the ride but hadn't realised it. Now it doesn't benefit me because I know the v symptoms earlier and I'm not getting so many while riding now.
This is personal to the individual, each person has their own asthma and response to in asthma. Their body reacts uniquely to any treatments they take. It would not surprise me to find out that this urine test limit is based on a certain percentage of cases but there is still some outliers that can result in that limit being beaten without breaking the limit for inhaler intake of the drug. It's a rational limit but does not include all cases. Hence you provide a means to account for these outlier cases.
I think Vorpal is right. I got told to take it 15 minutes before cycling too. Which worked initially. I think, but don't know, that I had EIA initially but stopped getting it because a required trigger was suddenly absent (perhaps cold air of autumn / winter). Now I get attacks at different times. For me two versions of asthma perhaps. Of course those 15 minutes don't mean it's a preventer as such because it remains active for some time after dosage ime. Hence it could still be active when you're riding and getting the EIA triggered. Just guessing, don't know for sure.
Mick F wrote: Froomy? Dunno, but if he has a stress issue like me and his asthma is stress related like mine, no doubt he's squirting it lots. I have some sympathy for him.
He is a pro athlete backed by apparently the best medical science in the peloton and he just squirts a few extra, being double over is not a few
I wouldn't know if my wee sample would show me having Ventoin or not. My bet would be that it would, and I'd also say that everybody is different. If I take a few squirts of Ventolin and then tested, and you did the same, would our figures be the same?
I doubt it very much.
But Mick, you totally ignore who he is and how long he claims to have had asthma, in all these years he has never gone over and then just on the same stage where in effect he won the Vuelta we get this.
BTW in this everyone is ignoring what Shane Sutton said about using TUE's and just in the past few minutes the MPC has called for Froome to be suspended and Sutton to be investigated.
Tangled Metal wrote:When is that big push he's talking about? Before the start or partway up an important climb?
Also taking salbutamol before the race could mean he's having an attack before the race hence he's taking it on response to a medical need. So you know whether that is the case or not?
I took it for while before I started riding. It had little effect for me most of the time. However I read new to asthma so didn't recognise early symptoms. In those early days I was having attacks start a lot and not just through exercise. When I first started taking them I seemed to get a benefit by taking it before setting off. The reason must have been because I was starting with the asthma early into the ride but hadn't realised it. Now it doesn't benefit me because I know the v symptoms earlier and I'm not getting so many while riding now.
This is personal to the individual, each person has their own asthma and response to in asthma. Their body reacts uniquely to any treatments they take. It would not surprise me to find out that this urine test limit is based on a certain percentage of cases but there is still some outliers that can result in that limit being beaten without breaking the limit for inhaler intake of the drug. It's a rational limit but does not include all cases. Hence you provide a means to account for these outlier cases.
It was taken from an interview maybe at the time Walsh was in tow. Noted the other day Walsh says he’s spoke to Froome and told him he'd lost confidence in him. I took it to mean at the start of every stage day race. As for how the levels vary with different people I’m fairly certain they will have many years of Froome's results to hand and surely this one stands out from his norm?
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life
ianrobo wrote:BTW in this everyone is ignoring what Shane Sutton said about using TUE's and just in the past few minutes the MPC has called for Froome to be suspended and Sutton to be investigated.
No, I've not been ignoring that. I said over in the other thread at viewtopic.php?p=1189657#p1189657 that I suspect Froome's had bad advice from Team Sky, more in line with Sutton's attitude of using therapy as a marginal gain than purely rider care. Although Shane Sutton was British Cycling and not Team Sky (I think), the lines are rather blurry (including his nephew riding for Team Sky 2010-2015) and he probably formed that approach with other ex-BC now-Sky staff.
The MPCC call is probably more opportunism. Many teams and riders probably see this as a chance to explain being bested by Team Sky to their sponsors (current and prospective).
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Paulatic wrote:As for how the levels vary with different people I’m fairly certain they will have many years of Froome's results to hand and surely this one stands out from his norm?
I don't know for certain how they do the tests, but I would suspect that they use a rule of thumb about how much people metabolise & test for the unmetabolised drug in urine. Further tests could include testing for the metabolised drug in the the same sample. I don't know how long it lasts, so I don't know, if for example a sample form September could be tested now, and give the same result that it would have then.
Like TM, I don't really understand the point of the limit for salbutamol. I don't think it would produce even marginal gains in someone who doesn't have any sort of asthma. There is substantial evidence that inhaled salbutamol does not affect capabiliy in non asthmatic people. Even with oral and injected doses, the evidence for performance enhancement is very weak.
Why would sky have pharmacokinetic test data? As I understand it this test is not needed for the performance of the athlete only to explain an unusual reading in the blood. Without having been in this exact situation before he's unlikely to have carried out the test needed to clear this matter up.
AFAIK it's a test on the speed of the drug passing through his system. I guess it allows them to show off it concentrates in his urine more than the typical person. Things like levels of hydration, exertion, etc probably need to be factored in. I'm guessing it's not cheap nor easy to carry out.
Is the MPC / MPCC the movement for credible cyclists? OK! A body made up of a collection of pro teams without the resources of sky or Garmin or the other handful of truly top flight teams. Who have been consistently bested by sky riders. They've got something independent and credible to say on the matter?
Tangled Metal wrote:Is the MPC / MPCC the movement for credible cyclists? OK! A body made up of a collection of pro teams without the resources of sky or Garmin or the other handful of truly top flight teams. Who have been consistently bested by sky riders. They've got something independent and credible to say on the matter?
Not quite. First of all, Garmin's successor Cannondale-Drapac came close to folding this year, plus it is a member.
http://www.mpcc.fr/index.php/en/membres-uk says at World Tour it's Ag2r (men's), Bora Hansgrohe (men's), Cannondale (men's), Dimension Data (men's), FDJ (both), Lotto Soudal (both), Rally (women's), Sunweb (both), TIBC (women's) and UHC (women's). There are many more lower-division teams too.
As for independent, clearly not. Credible in general, but maybe a bit partisan on this case.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
While funded by Garmin how was that team doing? I was actually referring to the past team as funded by Garmin BTW. AFAIK it was well funded back then but if wrong I'll stand to be corrected by you probably very my drift.
There's been a very small number of top teams backed by sponsors with deep pockets that can afford to take on quality cyclists in depth. Those are high profile and possibly not well liked by those teams struggling to keep their meagre funding. Whilst there are others, Sky seems to take the brunt of the criticism for this strength through funding.
Tangled Metal wrote:While funded by Garmin how was that team doing? I was actually referring to the past team as funded by Garmin BTW. AFAIK it was well funded back then but if wrong I'll stand to be corrected by you probably very my drift.
Their UCI World Tour finishing positions were: 11 (Garmin−Slipstream), 6 (Garmin-Transitions), 8 (Garmin-Cervélo), 9 (Garmin-Sharp), 8 (Garmin-Sharp), 11 (Garmin-Sharp), 16 (Cannondale-Garmin), 8 (Cannondale), 10 (Cannondale-Drapac). I suggest that the two post-Garmin results are bang on trend as consistently upper-mid-table.
According to https://cyclingtips.com/2011/07/le-tour ... m-budgets/ they had the joint second-lowest budget as Garmin-Cervélo, back when Sky was only the joint fourth-biggest spender. You may still be right, but I doubt it.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
