Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
ianrobo
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby ianrobo » 5 Mar 2018, 10:05am

djnotts wrote:And in the least surprising story of the decade.....cyclists (and the great majority of other professional (the clue is in that word) sports folk) take enhancing drugs. And apparently increasingly so do amateurs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply naïve.


Oh a few are but my default position is that all pro sports people dope/ stretch the ruleseirhrr . However you either accept this or call it out for what it is - CHEATING

djnotts
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby djnotts » 5 Mar 2018, 10:11am

"However you either accept this or call it out for what it is - CHEATING"

Yes it is cheating and yes I accept it!

Bonefishblues
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby Bonefishblues » 5 Mar 2018, 10:33am

Not cheating, but moral cheating as I read it.

Sportsmen push the boundaries as far as they can shocker - but not beyond, in this case, seemingly.

Notably forthright Report has attached a somewhat odd and impossible to shake label.

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mjr
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby mjr » 5 Mar 2018, 11:04am

ianrobo wrote:
Paulatic wrote:Sky’s response to DCMS report
https://www.teamsky.com/article/team-sk ... ort-report
I sincerely hope they are right and that there is no evidence.


Why do you hope that ? The evidence is clear and Sky know this and this should be the end for this doping organisation on the scale of Festina, Discovery etc and yes they have had positives ..... so even the Lance defence does not hold here.

Oh MJR said this would be a typical Whitehall fudge and for nice quite the opposite !

I disagree. It's a whole box of Whitehall fudge. What the heck is "crossed an ethical line"? Do they mean Team Sky haven't actually broken any rules in any provable way?

I think our esteemed legislators are trying to justify making more legislation, taking control of the rules away from HSBCUKBC, UKAD, UK Sport, UCI et al and giving it to themselves. Which I'm sure will be fine, as our legislators have clearly completed all their work and succeeded in providing a brilliant set of rules for our highways which are extremely fair and helpful for cycling and the health of the nation so now they need something else to work on(!)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

geocycle
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby geocycle » 5 Mar 2018, 11:54am

Looks bad for Sky and Sir Dave. What will the consequences be for Team Sky, British Cycling and even the UK boom in road cycling? Very disappointing on all fronts.

brynpoeth
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Mar 2018, 12:11pm

Does top €€ cycling €sport € have anything to do with club cycling, riding for fun, even club time trials?
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

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mjr
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby mjr » 5 Mar 2018, 12:51pm

brynpoeth wrote:Does top €€ cycling €sport € have anything to do with club cycling, riding for fun, even club time trials?

Some UCI rules are enforced on many HSBCUKBC club rides, even non-competitive ones (including the one which would land this discussion in the ghetto subforum), so yes, I think it does and it's often unhelpful. That depends on the club, though: CUK and CN clubs/groups don't have to follow any of them; and HSBCUKBC clubs don't have to follow them many, but lots seem to choose to follow more than they must.

CTT time trial rules are refreshingly stubborn in not blindly following the UCI but I don't know how long they'll continue to be able to do so, as fewer and fewer new club riders understand the history.

There's also the general thing that sport sells and a lot of equipment developed for racing is sold to UK consumers, possibly a higher proportion of the UK cycling market than in other countries that have more widespread practical cycling cultures.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

geocycle
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby geocycle » 5 Mar 2018, 1:29pm

mjr wrote:There's also the general thing that sport sells and a lot of equipment developed for racing is sold to UK consumers, possibly a higher proportion of the UK cycling market than in other countries that have more widespread practical cycling cultures.


Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was sceptical about the trickle down from pros although I am more persuaded when I see the bike shed at work.

djnotts
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby djnotts » 5 Mar 2018, 1:53pm

geocycle wrote:
mjr wrote:There's also the general thing that sport sells and a lot of equipment developed for racing is sold to UK consumers, possibly a higher proportion of the UK cycling market than in other countries that have more widespread practical cycling cultures.


Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was sceptical about the trickle down from pros although I am more persuaded when I see the bike shed at work.


Just so. I am more persuaded when I see what is readily available to buy from major brands and retailers
There is very little choice for those who need low gearing or an upright stance. Sensible, everyday, versatile bikes are most easily found from German and Dutch sellers on ebay. Calling them "trekking" bikes is a bit of a misnomer, but the choice of style, components and even price point is very wide compared with UK.

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mjr
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby mjr » 5 Mar 2018, 3:16pm

mjr wrote:
ianrobo wrote:
Paulatic wrote:Sky’s response to DCMS report
https://www.teamsky.com/article/team-sk ... ort-report
I sincerely hope they are right and that there is no evidence.


Why do you hope that ? The evidence is clear and Sky know this and this should be the end for this doping organisation on the scale of Festina, Discovery etc and yes they have had positives ..... so even the Lance defence does not hold here.

Oh MJR said this would be a typical Whitehall fudge and for nice quite the opposite !

I disagree. It's a whole box of Whitehall fudge. What the heck is "crossed an ethical line"? Do they mean Team Sky haven't actually broken any rules in any provable way?

I think our esteemed legislators are trying to justify making more legislation, taking control of the rules away from HSBCUKBC, UKAD, UK Sport, UCI et al and giving it to themselves. Which I'm sure will be fine, as our legislators have clearly completed all their work and succeeded in providing a brilliant set of rules for our highways which are extremely fair and helpful for cycling and the health of the nation so now they need something else to work on(!)

Answering myself with lunchtime reading:

Here's the warped criminal law recommendations. Let's jail the medics! :-\

"151.We do not think it would be effective to subject doping athletes to criminal procedures and penalties. Longer bans on competing are likely to be more of a disincentive to them, and will avoid placing an extra burden on law enforcement bodies such as the police and courts. However, the supply of drugs or promotion of unnecessary medical procedures is a different matter. The Government should give serious consideration to criminalising the supply of drugs to sportspeople with intent to enhance performance rather than to mitigate ill-health, and in so doing defraud clean athletes they are competing against. This would send a stronger message about the unacceptability and the dangers of doping, not only to the suppliers but also to the athletes.

152.For UK Anti-Doping to be more effective, it not only needs more resources, but greater powers too. It has no powers to demand to see private papers, and financial and medical records, to aid its investigations. A change in the law to criminalise the supply of drugs to sports people could give UKAD the powers to access documents without seeking prior agreement, and the right to seek the support of the law enforcement agencies in their investigations, as appropriate."

They also support extending bans from 2 to 5 years so athletes miss two Olympics. As that's why people dope. Olympic gold. :roll:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

djnotts
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby djnotts » 5 Mar 2018, 3:29pm

"Here's the warped criminal law recommendations. Let's jail the medics! :-\

"151.We do not think it would be effective to subject doping athletes to criminal procedures and penalties. Longer bans on competing are likely to be more of a disincentive to them, and will avoid placing an extra burden on law enforcement bodies such as the police and courts. However, the supply of drugs or promotion of unnecessary medical procedures is a different matter. "

Surely pretty much the same thrust as recreational drugs. Dealers take the fall, users increasingly tolerated. Resource constraints the bottom line - possible (just!) to bang up 10 dealers, 1000 users a different matter. See nothing "warped" in such a pragmatic approach.

ianrobo
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby ianrobo » 5 Mar 2018, 6:37pm

djnotts wrote:"Here's the warped criminal law recommendations. Let's jail the medics! :-\

"151.We do not think it would be effective to subject doping athletes to criminal procedures and penalties. Longer bans on competing are likely to be more of a disincentive to them, and will avoid placing an extra burden on law enforcement bodies such as the police and courts. However, the supply of drugs or promotion of unnecessary medical procedures is a different matter. "

Surely pretty much the same thrust as recreational drugs. Dealers take the fall, users increasingly tolerated. Resource constraints the bottom line - possible (just!) to bang up 10 dealers, 1000 users a different matter. See nothing "warped" in such a pragmatic approach.


thats what they do in Spain (Fuentes) and what they do in Italy (Ferrari) and France do both athletes and docs but happy with docs as they risk their whole career for this, sports people 2 years or if they think of a stupid excuse just months

roger
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby roger » 5 Mar 2018, 8:51pm

Today's Times in 2 pretty anti Sky report quotes para 110 of the DCMS report as The Killer Line. This says that the corticosteroid was used to enhance performance, not for a medical reason.
In its supporting footnote to this paragraph DCMS displays a Daily Mail report making the relevant comments.
Have to think that The Times did not check this and the committee was looking for help from any source.

This seems to be the reverse of the Armstrong investigations where the early interviews were not given under oath and could not be used. There the guilty obtained a temporary respite, but here guilt appears to be decided under very nebulous circumstances.

Roger

FWIW Sky and the Times are part of the same organisation, not actually Disney.

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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Mar 2018, 4:02pm

When so much money is involved, the 'marginal gains' people think up ways to get better, on the edge of the rules/laws
Maybe a slow race could be held, no need for doping, one would have to be clear-headed to keep ones balance
Are there sports where doping would not help? Chess, darts maybe?
Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott.. Alternative facts welcome

Brucey
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Re: Goodbye then .. Chris Froome

Postby Brucey » 9 Mar 2018, 12:41pm

skill games such as snooker, darts, golf etc have all had scandals with competitors using drugs like beta blockers. Amazingly I think pro golfers are now tested to see that they have not been taking steroids, too.

cheers
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