Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
irc
Posts: 4387
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby irc » 19 Oct 2018, 4:43pm

thelawnet wrote:I think that issue already exists in that if there is someone who appears to be male in the female changing rooms, then any challenge of that person is open to accusations of hate crimes/harassment etc.


Correct.

Your 11-year-old granddaughter comes home from school upset. Changing after gym, another girl stood watching her undress and playing with her penis. (The girl in question is transgender, so yes, she has a penis.) When your family complains to the school, what happens?


it’s not the girl with a penis who has a problem, it’s the girl without one. She and her parents have wrongly assumed the child with the penis is ‘not a real girl’. That error should be ‘challenged through training and awareness raising’ so your granddaughter is comfortable with her classmate.


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/tra ... one-wrong/

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16161
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 19 Oct 2018, 8:22pm

Yes, I know that there are some physiological differences. I never argued that there weren't. Only that they don't affect performance as much as you think.

Height makes absolutely no difference in most sports. Women develop endurance muscles more easily than men, which allows them to be competitive today in some long distance events.

Women with testosterone levels are typically not *allowed* to compete as women. They're banned form the Olympics and most elite levels of sport. So there are bound to be difference, when one group is artifically limited.

https://www.wired.com/story/testosteron ... l-ability/
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... io-n631086

Read this book. Really.
https://books.google.no/books/about/Pla ... edir_esc=y
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

landsurfer
Posts: 4220
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 19 Oct 2018, 8:30pm

At what what point do we, Men with penis's and Women without penis's, make a stand and say enough of this .......
Why do we not take a steer from the LGBTQ community and stand up for OUR rights ....
Our rights to be male, with a penis, and female, without a penis .....
We are looking at a hundred years of women rights struggles being overturned by men and boys in dresses .. with penis's......

Why are Women not standing up to this !!!!

Where is #MeToo .... on this Issue ....

Come on Mumsnet ... start kicking off ...
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16161
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 19 Oct 2018, 8:50pm

landsurfer wrote:At what what point do we, Men with penis's and Women without penis's, make a stand and say enough of this .......
Why do we not take a steer from the LGBTQ community and stand up for OUR rights ....
Our rights to be male, with a penis, and female, without a penis .....
We are looking at a hundred years of women rights struggles being overturned by men and boys in dresses .. with penis's......

Why are Women not standing up to this !!!!

Where is #MeToo .... on this Issue ....

Come on Mumsnet ... start kicking off ...

#me too has nothing to do with this.

IMO, men and women should compete together in many, perhaps most, sports. It would, if nothing else, eliminate controversy about gender, chromosome testing, hormones, etc.

Women would, initially be disadvantaged, but I am confident that in many sports, women can learn to compete against men, just like they have in long distance swimming, and a few other sports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-distance_swimming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reed
https://www.forbes.com/2008/05/22/women ... cc62283bbf
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thelawnet
Posts: 1675
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 19 Oct 2018, 9:36pm

Vorpal wrote:IMO, men and women should compete together in many, perhaps most, sports. It would, if nothing else, eliminate controversy about gender, chromosome testing, hormones, etc.

Women would, initially be disadvantaged, but I am confident that in many sports, women can learn to compete against men, just like they have in long distance swimming, and a few other sports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-distance_swimming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reed
https://www.forbes.com/2008/05/22/women ... cc62283bbf


The sports where women maybe keep up with men are limited to ultra-marathons/swimming, and there may be physiological differences at play. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9044230

It's not really a question of 'learning to compete' - women compete fine against women, but for example the strongest woman (5' 10", 108kg) in weightlifting is a match for the 5'2"/62kg man.

landsurfer
Posts: 4220
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 19 Oct 2018, 9:41pm

Vorpal wrote:IMO, men and women should compete together in many, perhaps most, sports. It would, if nothing else, eliminate controversy about gender, chromosome testing, hormones, etc.

Women would, initially be disadvantaged, but I am confident that in many sports, women can learn to compete against men, just like they have in long distance swimming, and a few other sports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-distance_swimming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reed
https://www.forbes.com/2008/05/22/women ... cc62283bbf


So swimming then ...OK .. weight lifting ? 100mtr sprint ? ..Cycling ... Yates v Archibald over 200km in the Alps .....
IMO ... thats nonsense ....
So no women world champs, no successful role models for girls ....
The bottom line with the transgender issue is a lack of reality ... in sport, in life, in the reality of equality...
Fine ...Lets end mens and woman sport .. just sport .... the whole transgender issue will disappear ... as will all women on the podium ...
except for the ones with a penis !!
Oh sorry ... men ......
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16161
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 20 Oct 2018, 11:01am

That's only opinion. And I admit that it's likely that some sports will see women struggling to compete in a mixed sex elite sport, possibly for as much as a generation or two.

The physiological differences aren't much when it comes down to person to person. What makes the difference is that many girls are discouraged from competing because it isn't feminine, or because of related cultural drivers. When they do compete, it is only against other girls and women who face the same disincentive. If someone consistently wins, where is the incentive to work that much harder, improve technique, etc.?

Also, women learn from an early age to use their bodies differently. Why do girls 'throw like a girl'? They learn to use their bodies in ways that allow them to appear feminine, and this results in things like 'throw like a girl' that has to be unlearned to play some sports.

Billie Jean King wanted to play baseball, but she wasn't allowed. So she learned the one ball sport that she was allowed to participate in. How many elite players have we lost over the years because girls were discouraged or not allowed?

Which women's football teams have been the most competitive at international levels? Most of the teams that are highly ranked, and all of the ones that win women's world cup titles come from countries where women often play on mixed gender teams. Japan has men's women's and mixed gender teams at all but elite levels. Most non-elite football (soccer :wink: ) in the USA is mixed gender, and also in Germany, at least through teens. Unfortunately FIFA do not allow men and women to play together, at the international level. There is no reason not to allow women to play on the best elite teams, if they can make the squad.

Science agrees with me. It doesn't seem that landsurfer or thelawnet have read the articles I've posted above, but in case it helps, here's another

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 012.680533

The folks running international sport recognise it, too (except for FIFA), but they think that we need to gradually integrate sport, so with the 2020 Olympics we will have additional mixed relay competitions in swimming and athletics. https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/tokyo-2020- ... ing-128961 This is a part of a general shift toward making the central comptetition an elite mixed gender competition in most sports https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... s-5-sports
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thelawnet
Posts: 1675
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 20 Oct 2018, 11:46am

Vorpal wrote:That's only opinion. And I admit that it's likely that some sports will see women struggling to compete in a mixed sex elite sport, possibly for as much as a generation or two.

The physiological differences aren't much when it comes down to person to person. What makes the difference is that many girls are discouraged from competing because it isn't feminine, or because of related cultural drivers. When they do compete, it is only against other girls and women who face the same disincentive. If someone consistently wins, where is the incentive to work that much harder, improve technique, etc.?

Also, women learn from an early age to use their bodies differently. Why do girls 'throw like a girl'? They learn to use their bodies in ways that allow them to appear feminine, and this results in things like 'throw like a girl' that has to be unlearned to play some sports.

Billie Jean King wanted to play baseball, but she wasn't allowed. So she learned the one ball sport that she was allowed to participate in. How many elite players have we lost over the years because girls were discouraged or not allowed?


Yes women are encouraged to participate in tennis, and female tennis has been popular and socially acceptable for a very long time. Yet men CRUSH women. It's not even the same sport in terms of the style of play, and that's a result of the fundamental differences between men and women. I'm not sure why you continue to labour under this delusion that somehow women are being held back from beating men by some sort of process of socialisation.

Unfortunately FIFA do not allow men and women to play together, at the international level. There is no reason not to allow women to play on the best elite teams, if they can make the squad.


They can't. Not even close. Every so often you hear about the best woman in some sport wanting to try out for the men. Does it ever happen? No, because physically, even on a team game, there's a fundamental lack of strength.

Science agrees with me. It doesn't seem that landsurfer or thelawnet have read the articles I've posted above, but in case it helps, here's another

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 012.680533


No, you keep posting things that don't say what you think they say. I covered this above:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=125722&start=45#p1284758

Women don't have 'hyperandrogenism', they have, typically PCOS, which results in testosterone levels below half the lowest male level. And they could have other conditions, but we should be specific about what we are talking about because 'woman with hyperandrogenism' is not meaningful, as it could refer to someone who has male biology.

This article you have just linked to is talking about intersex athletes, those who have a disorder of sexual development.

These people are NOT transgender. Caster Semenya has a genetic condition, quite likely 5-alpha reductase deficiency, which causes genitals which appear female, while having internal testicles producing testosterone. People with this condition have male chromosomes (XY) and male testosterone levels due to the ownership of testicles.

Clearly there are concerns about people who have come from a poor background, as Semenya did, been raised as female, being suddenly excluded from sport on the basis of a condition that they did not know they had. We should all have sympathy, even if we are not convinced they should be allowed to compete.

And by the way note for the record that is extremely difficult to prove conclusively whether a given, rare, intersex condition confers an advantage, since, as observed above, an elite rower is above the 99.2nd percentile for height, and it is to be presumed that in other, more popular sports, that the level of biological selectivity (before we get onto issues like training) is higher than that.

So on the one hand you have the entire pool of XX chromosome adult women to select from, with the slow/weak already selected out, and then on the other you have a tiny pool of people with XY chromosomes, and disorders of sexual development meaning that they were assigned female at birth. These people are legally recognised as female based on their birth certificates, even though they typically produce viable male sperm, and lack ovaries, uterus, menses, etc. So you can't even compare the two pools because the latter pool is too small.

Now the question of whether it is fair for this person who could, in a more developed country, have received a male birth certificate, but instead was raised as female, is open to some debate.

Because ultimately I'm not convinced it is possible to prove definitively if the tiny number of people with these conditions have 'male' or 'female' performance, even though doctors are clear that their skeletons are 'male'.

My position on this issue would be that people with male skeletons & male gonads should not compete as female.

But again I've already covered this, quite specifically here viewtopic.php?f=46&t=125722&start=45#p1284730

So I'm not really sure why you are sending me this link.

And in any case none of this has any bearing on the unfairness of having McKinnon 'change gender' from male to female as an adult and go on to dominate the sport of track cycling, which is heavily power-based, from nothing in the space of a couple of years. Clearly this is not a female performance. McKinnon took up cycling aged 34, did quite poorly at road cycling and has now gone on to track. The cause of this trajectory is very simple - McKinnon's male body.

landsurfer
Posts: 4220
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 20 Oct 2018, 12:09pm

thelawnet wrote:[
And in any case none of this has any bearing on the unfairness of having McKinnon 'change gender' from male to female as an adult and go on to dominate the sport of track cycling, which is heavily power-based, from nothing in the space of a couple of years. Clearly this is not a female performance. McKinnon took up cycling aged 34, did quite poorly at road cycling and has now gone on to track. The cause of this trajectory is very simple - McKinnon's male body.


+1 to all of the post.

What causes me concern is the rush from people to support and affirm a man dressed up in girls clothes.
Dressing up is just what it is .....
If you think a man putting womans clothes on suddenly becomes a woman then i suspect your suffering from from the same delusional behaviour as the person "dressing up".
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16161
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 20 Oct 2018, 12:13pm

My position is
1) That we should eliminate this question by making most, if not all elite competitions open to all genders
2) Much of the evidence is skewed by our cultural beliefs about the impact of male build and hormones that comes from the mistaken belief of male superiority
3) People who identify as women, should be allowed to compete as women.

Exceptions should be based upon scientific evidence around the sport in question, and not general theories about the impact of physiological differences on performance.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

landsurfer
Posts: 4220
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 20 Oct 2018, 12:17pm

Vorpal wrote:My position is
1) That we should eliminate this question by making most, if not all elite competitions open to all genders
2) Much of the evidence is skewed by our cultural beliefs about the impact of male build and hormones that comes from the mistaken belief of male superiority
3) People who identify as women, should be allowed to compete as women.

Exceptions should be based upon scientific evidence around the sport in question, and not general theories about the impact of physiological differences on performance.



My position is .... Non of the above ... :)
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16161
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 20 Oct 2018, 12:41pm

Well, I guess that we will have to agree to disagree. :)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

landsurfer
Posts: 4220
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 20 Oct 2018, 12:50pm

Vorpal wrote:Well, I guess that we will have to agree to disagree. :)


It's not always a bad thing .... boring world otherwise.. TCSS.
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.