Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 18 Oct 2018, 11:09am

Vorpal wrote:
thelawnet wrote:Hmm, well I think that the figure is estimated around 0.5%? So not that rare, that would be several hundred thousand people. And there is a big move to encourage children to identify as transgender, so the figures may grow in future.

Do you have some evidence for this? The other place I've encountered someone saying this (on mumsnet) had no evidence, and when I questioned her, she offered some wacky conspiracy theory about the Trans 'agenda'.

This is simply a recognition that not everyone fits the male/female binary. I think it's good that children are being taught this. If it results in more identifying as Trans, well, I hope that also means that fewer struggle through life feeling that something is wrong, and not ever knowing what it is, or worse, end up with mental and behvioural disorders, or commit suicide. Because that is what has happened to a disproportionate number of Trans people in the past.


It's still binary, it's just that people are being told that if they don't 'feel like a girl', then they 'might be a boy'. Not fitting a female or male gender stereotype is not a bad thing, but this is more about enforcing rigid stereotypes than it is dispelling them..

It's clearly something that's being heavily promoted, as there is masses of stuff on social media, Youtube, etc., and where 'transgender children' were unheard of a decade or so ago, it's now quite common, and the numbers of children being treated by transgender clinics has increased exponentially. https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... zwahn.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... uadrupled/

Clearly when you have for example Youtube channels with large numbers of subscribers

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXX0iC ... GW4gKEhHdA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHSIA2 ... UX4Sl8OrcA

by young people, for young people, then that content is going to influence young people. Simply put 10 years ago there were zero children getting double mastectomies for gender identity, zero teenagers on puberty blocking hormones, zero teenagers taking cross-sex steroids, and so on, whereas now it's visible, and it has emerged from zero. The first case in the UK was not done by the NHS, but overseas in Boston & Thailand, https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/ ... -birthday/ and the parent of the child in question now runs a lobby group promoting the same course of action under the NHS.

My opinion is that transgender identity is comorbid with conditions such as depression and other things which may lead to suicide, and we certainly can't conclude that changing gender will solve these people's issues. I believe that there are those who have changed gender perhaps later in life, particularly on the male-to-female side, who regret that their appearance is obviously and irreversibly male, and there is some projection in this regard that 'I wish I had transitioned as a child' into encouraging the medicalisation of children, and also moreover promoting/normalising plastic surgery etc. as a medical solution to an issue of gender identity.

There are quite a few men who have changed gender after having children, in some cases almost immediately afterwards, so gender identity issues are in their cases delayed to fulfil a biological desire to reproduce. In the case of children subject to treatments that will render them infertile it's difficult to see how there can be consent for that, as I suspect that there are certain evolutionary factors in that our desire to produce children is something that manifests itself as an adult, and not when we are ourselves children and have no interest in our future fertility but are instead dealing with teenage angst, etc.

Vorpal
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 18 Oct 2018, 12:13pm

thelawnet wrote:Women & girls having to give up competitive sport because of physically stronger male-bodied individuals is certainly an issue.

https://www.ctpost.com/highschool/artic ... 228179.php

“Looking at the transgender athletes having so much success in the 100 and 200, we looked at it and said we needed to change what we were doing,” Morth told the Norwich Bulletin. “We needed to get out of those events. I had wanted Kalli’Ana to be a hurdler for while. She’s a great athlete.”


So the girl who had trained for several years as a sprinter had to give up and find a new sport because a second-rate male athlete had redeclared themselves as female.

" In the indoor season (Miller) ran as a boy, practiced, competed as a boy. And then decided to change gender to a girl for the outdoor season, which really put a toll on the girls who worked maybe four years and had it ripped away from them.”

Or maybe, it will make them better.

Read the book, Playing With the Boys: Why Separate is Not Equal in Sports. The authors effectively dismantle all the assumptions about gender differences in sport.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Vorpal
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 18 Oct 2018, 12:23pm

thelawnet wrote:It's still binary, it's just that people are being told that if they don't 'feel like a girl', then they 'might be a boy'. Not fitting a female or male gender stereotype is not a bad thing, but this is more about enforcing rigid stereotypes than it is dispelling them..

It's clearly something that's being heavily promoted, as there is masses of stuff on social media, Youtube, etc., and where 'transgender children' were unheard of a decade or so ago, it's now quite common, and the numbers of children being treated by transgender clinics has increased exponentially. https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... zwahn.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... uadrupled/
...


I don't have time to unpack all of the things in there where I think there are some misunderstandings about gender identity, but please read https://www.apa.org/monitor/2013/04/transgender.aspx

It's from the USA, but the approach is similar in Europe, and it includes some information about mental health.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

brynpoeth
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby brynpoeth » 18 Oct 2018, 8:19pm

John/Jan Morris, a famous Welsh writer, changed gender and wrote a book "Conundrum" about it, and Robert Millar of course, doubtless there are other accounts and many who keep quiet, +1

I think there is a spectrum, I am male but a bit of a wimp, I cry sometimes, have more female friends than male, (is that -normal-? :wink:), I like cooking and poetry

Really don't want to change gender, I am proud of my greying beard

One thing is certain I think, males and females are often very different

Alternative facts welcome
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 18 Oct 2018, 8:36pm

brynpoeth wrote:J

I think there is a spectrum, I am male but a bit of a wimp, I cry sometimes, have more female friends than male, (is that -normal-? :wink:), I like cooking and poetry


I cry lots, have more female friends than male, as all hetro sexual males do ... we like girls .. Like them so much i have one of my own ... Or she has a male of her own .. :) ... I cook the majority of meals in our house hold, and am a published poet.
And a Man ...
And it seems you are as well ...
No Gods, No Heros... but respect to Philippa Yorke.
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

brynpoeth
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby brynpoeth » 18 Oct 2018, 8:43pm

landsurfer wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:J

I think there is a spectrum, I am male but a bit of a wimp, I cry sometimes, have more female friends than male, (is that -normal-? :wink:), I like cooking and poetry


I cry lots, have more female friends than male, as all hetro sexual males do
..

True or false? Time for a poll? Most of my friends on these fora are male, there are not many who keep their gender secret

Where we're your poems published? I had a couple of cycling articles in the Grauniad
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

landsurfer
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 18 Oct 2018, 8:52pm

brynpoeth wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:J

I think there is a spectrum, I am male but a bit of a wimp, I cry sometimes, have more female friends than male, (is that -normal-? :wink:), I like cooking and poetry


I cry lots, have more female friends than male, as all hetro sexual males do
..

True or false? Time for a poll? Most of my friends on these fora are male, there are not many who keep their gender secret

Where we're your poems published? I had a couple of cycling articles in the Grauniad


Belfast Telegraph 1974, Liverpool Echo 1982, Soldier Magazine 1983, Mountain ... 1998... etc ... the latest was 2014 .. don't forget the cooking..
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Psamathe
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2018, 9:50am

Maybe relevant to the discussion, something I heard on Newsnight yesterday which shocked me so I double checked for other reports and
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anger-over-women-s-business-honour-for-cross-dressing-banker-h0gv3l7nw wrote:Anger over women’s business honour for cross-dressing banker
A male Credit Suisse director who sometimes goes to work in a wig and dress has prompted outrage by accepting a place on a list of the Top 100 Women in Business.

Philip Bunce, who is married with two grow-up children, typically spends half his time as Philip and half as his female alter ego, Pippa. He says he is “gender fluid” and “non-binary.”

I don't understand enough about the issues but it does seem relevant to the issues about "self-certification".

Ian

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cyclemad
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby cyclemad » 19 Oct 2018, 9:59am

I think the bottom line is ...Be who you want to be.......If a person feels happier as Pippa rather than Phillip then so be it......Time to accept people for what or who they wish to be and respect that.

Not so long ago a male wearing female clothing in public was considered to be causing a Breach of the peace and was liable to arrest... A female in male clothing...who bats an eyelid ???

I identify as female yet I was born a male...Im happier identifying as female. Im happily married to a beautiful wife who supports me every step of the way. its great going shopping now as we compare clothes and advise each other what to wear . Yes it has raised a few eyebrows in Sweaty Betty asking the sales assistant '' do yo have these very bright leggings in y size?'' nut they don't laugh -- a sale is a sale after all and in one store one girl remarked -- ''mens clothing is so boring with dull colours and I'm surprised more men don't buy these ''
My friends and work colleagues respect me all the time and woe betide anyone who makes a hurtful comment and yes out in public I sometimes get sniggers and whispers from the very young and the very old but who cares ..In clothes shops and cycle clothing shops I get more help from the female staff( more f than the males - who were always too busy to help - or gave that impression --- even when I went in ''as a bloke'' )....Its my life and if I choose to wear Pink Cycle socks , shoes and cycle clothing SO WHAT....its my life :D
Last edited by cyclemad on 19 Oct 2018, 10:03am, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby brynpoeth » 19 Oct 2018, 10:03am

Plus One, plenty of people have two (or more) nationalities, including me, let them identify and dress how they like

Is a kilt a particularly masculine or particularly feminine garment? :wink:
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

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cyclemad
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby cyclemad » 19 Oct 2018, 10:17am

Before taking up cycling ( mid life crisis my wife calls its ) I was a very avid Hill walker ...Munroes abound !! and wore a Unisex Patagonia Walking Skirt....A friend of mine put me onto them having met a group up in the Cairngorms who swore blind by them saying how comfortable they were in all weathers --- no chaffing etc !! :D I wore one for years and it was a revelation ....why had women and excuse me , Scotsman , kept this a secret for so long !!!!! Then one day I walked into a pub in the lakes , ordered a beer and sat down ...The barman walked past and muttered under his breath '' what a puff ! '' I approached him and asked him to repeat what he had said , in front of my mate, EX Coldstream Guardsman...who was as wide as he was tall.....So what's the difference then I asked and he slunk away.....



So if I wear a a nice Female colour cycle jersey and Bibs or a walking skirt why should I not get treated the same as a scotsman in a kilt ?

Didnt men wear stockings and tights instead of trousers at one time...dont Asian / Indian sub continent men wear sarongs ? Remember Beckham hitting the headlines years back for daring to wear a SARONG in 100* heat in the Far East ?

I recently contacted Giant / Liv and asked why they only seem to supply bright coloured products in female sizes..Their response was that they have had many many requests from men who admire there LIV clothing but daren't wear it for fear of ridicule !!! RIDICULE !!!!

My cycling buddy wears womens cycle jerseys because of the bright ''cheerful'' colours and likes to be seen rather than blend in with the background in black and more black jerseys....

Anyone know of an instance when the winner of the Giro was laughed at for wearing a Pink Jersey ???

Its a real shame that we have to update our ancient legal system to protect certain members of society but sadly there are those amongst us that although they smile and nod with acceptance, they do not like the fact that ''we are different''

We should all be equal and free to express our selves and live our lives the way we want to ....

Psamathe
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2018, 10:24am

cyclemad wrote:I think the bottom line is ...Be who you want to be.......If a person feels happier as Pippa rather than Phillip then so be it......Time to accept people for what or who they wish to be and respect that.

Not so long ago a male wearing female clothing in public was considered to be causing a Breach of the peace and was liable to arrest... A female in male clothing...who bats an eyelid ???

I identify as female yet I was born a male...Im happier identifying as female. Im happily married to a beautiful wife who supports me every step of the way. its great going shopping now as we compare clothes and advise each other what to wear . Yes it has raised a few eyebrows in Sweaty Betty asking the sales assistant '' do yo have these very bright leggings in y size?'' nut they don't laugh -- a sale is a sale after all and in one store one girl remarked -- ''mens clothing is so boring with dull colours and I'm surprised more men don't buy these ''
My friends and work colleagues respect me all the time and woe betide anyone who makes a hurtful comment and yes out in public I sometimes get sniggers and whispers from the very young and the very old but who cares ..In clothes shops and cycle clothing shops I get more help from the female staff( more f than the males - who were always too busy to help - or gave that impression --- even when I went in ''as a bloke'' )....Its my life and if I choose to wear Pink Cycle socks , shoes and cycle clothing SO WHAT....its my life :D

I had the impression that the current debate is not about how people chose to lead their lives but about legal status and gender rights.

When a business person is recognised for their achievement as a woman in business but next day is a man in business and then flip-flops between on a regular basis it to an extent makes a bit of a mockery of the recognition of women in business. BUT, nobody is criticising the individual for their gender decisions, just the questions over that person's legal status when it comes to e.g. women only business awards (to try and highlight women's achievements in sectors where women are underrepresented).

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2018, 10:24am

cyclemad wrote:.....
We should all be equal and free to express our selves and live our lives the way we want to ....

I don't think anybody is saying that you shouldn't.

Ian

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cyclemad
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby cyclemad » 19 Oct 2018, 10:27am

I was just generalising -- society needs to change and remove stereotypes etc...As the old saying goes -- '' we are the same underneath'' :D :D :D :D :D :D

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby roubaixtuesday » 19 Oct 2018, 10:31am

I heard the winner interviewed on the Today programme this morning, would have been some time before 8am and will be on iPlayer if anyone is interested.

Her take was that decisions on who is eligible to race should be based on published peer reviewed scientific findings rather than opinons, even expert opinions.