2011 Vuelta result revision

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
reohn2
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 10:34am

Brucey wrote:.........It is a bit of a mess.

cheers


Amen to that!
Of course if the whole system hadn't been corrupt(I recommend the book The Program by David Walsh) then no one would dare risk doping.
But in a world where money is the all of everything what can we expect?
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Mike Sales
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby Mike Sales » 24 Jun 2019, 10:48am

reohn2 wrote:But in a world where money is the all of everything what can we expect?


It is easy to think that it is the money in professional sport which is the corrupting factor. I did.
But doping has started to turn up in amateur sport.

https://road.cc/content/news/219465-doping-amateur-sport-becoming-crisis-says-uk-anti-doping-boss

reohn2
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 10:54am

Mike Sales wrote:
reohn2 wrote:But in a world where money is the all of everything what can we expect?


It is easy to think that it is the money in professional sport which is the corrupting factor. I did.
But doping has started to turn up in amateur sport.

https://road.cc/content/news/219465-doping-amateur-sport-becoming-crisis-says-uk-anti-doping-boss

Amateur sport is the stepping stone to the pro peloton is it not?
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Mike Sales
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby Mike Sales » 24 Jun 2019, 10:59am

reohn2 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
reohn2 wrote:But in a world where money is the all of everything what can we expect?


It is easy to think that it is the money in professional sport which is the corrupting factor. I did.
But doping has started to turn up in amateur sport.

https://road.cc/content/news/219465-doping-amateur-sport-becoming-crisis-says-uk-anti-doping-boss

Amateur sport is the stepping stone to the pro peloton is it not?


True, but the article is about doping in all sports, and gives the impression that there are other motives than money involved. It is a depressing read.

mattheus
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby mattheus » 24 Jun 2019, 11:01am

reohn2 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
reohn2 wrote:But in a world where money is the all of everything what can we expect?


It is easy to think that it is the money in professional sport which is the corrupting factor. I did.
But doping has started to turn up in amateur sport.

https://road.cc/content/news/219465-doping-amateur-sport-becoming-crisis-says-uk-anti-doping-boss

Amateur sport is the stepping stone to the pro peloton is it not?

Very VERY rarely!

reohn2
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 11:19am

Mike Sales wrote:True, but the article is about doping in all sports, and gives the impression that there are other motives than money involved. It is a depressing read.

I appreciate that but the same rule applies,these people are trying to be No1 by fair means or foul,it's the way the world's gone,or maybe always has been but less some in the amateur ranks.
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Mike Sales
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby Mike Sales » 24 Jun 2019, 11:26am

I think I remember in Paul Kimmage's book A Rough Ride that he took PEDs not to win, but just to show well enough in his domestic role to get a contract next season.
He also mentions DSs saying, "no tests in this race", with a wink.

reohn2
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 11:33am

mattheus wrote:Very VERY rarely!

Of course it's rare but that's the aim of such people.
It's the same in entertainment,some(an ever increasing number it seems or was it always so?)will do anything for stardom and must come as a shock if they've given everything only to be told you don't make the grade/team/show/etc,in other words,you're just not good enough.
It's why there's so much mental health issues in sport and the performing arts,and in a wider context in our young people,you can read into it the bullying and recreational drugs culture in modern society.
It's what happens when bad = good,our politicians are a classic example for all to see.
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hodge
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby hodge » 24 Jun 2019, 3:02pm

brynpoeth wrote:Why do people call him 'froomdog'?


http://scarsbrook-art.com/2016/08/26/wi ... -froomdog/

mattheus
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby mattheus » 24 Jun 2019, 3:36pm

hodge wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Why do people call him 'froomdog'?


http://scarsbrook-art.com/2016/08/26/wi ... -froomdog/


Well I did not know that!

mattheus
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby mattheus » 25 Jun 2019, 10:50am

Tangled Metal wrote:This would make Froome the first UK GT winner ahead of Wiggins. Oh I'd love that justice. Afterall I suspect Froome was the stronger cyclist when Wiggins won his TdF.


General public only cares about the French race (and the Olympics). Wiggo was the first to win the former, and has several golds from the latter - I suspect he'll be happy enough looking at his CV.

(I'm not a Froome fan, but he has proved to be the more complete Grand Tour racer - when he looks where he's going, anyway ... )

Postboxer
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby Postboxer » 26 Jun 2019, 6:26pm

The thing is, had he won the Vuelta in 2011, maybe he would have been the lead rider in 2012, the general public don't know Froome as much as Wiggins, possibly down to this, or possibly because Wiggins was already on the radar from the Olympics, then had that magic year in 2012 when he won the Tour, opened the Olympics then won gold.

I propose some kind of amnesty, not sure the Court of Arbitration for Sport would allow it though. Announce that the UCI are looking into redistributing the wins of the Tours that currently have no champion, set a deadline, maybe in 2 or 3 years time, or 2 or 3 years after the last participant retires, ask for any evidence of cheating by any participant or teams involved, then have a panel decide the most likely true champion. Then award the new champion at the event, maybe on the podium straight after the race finishes, or maybe at a stage of their choice, maybe allow them to ride part of the stage ahead of the peleton or ride in an open topped car to take the plaudits from the fans.

Not ideal but I think it looks a bit silly having years where there is no champion, if I had finished 2nd I'd be appealing to be awarded the win. Maybe at some point in the future, for the good of cycling, people will start to admit what they did but also maybe point out the riders who didn't cheat.

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mjr
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby mjr » 26 Jun 2019, 7:50pm

Postboxer wrote:The thing is, had he won the Vuelta in 2011, maybe he would have been the lead rider in 2012, the general public don't know Froome as much as Wiggins, possibly down to this, or possibly because Wiggins was already on the radar from the Olympics, then had that magic year in 2012 when he won the Tour, opened the Olympics then won gold.

Ah, but if dopey Cobo hadn't been racing, who would Froome have been told to chase down and consequently overtake Wiggo in the overall standings?
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mjr
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby mjr » 26 Jun 2019, 7:51pm

Brucey wrote:Giving one of Armstrong's TdFs to someone who (say) came fifth (and simply didn't have many samples taken at the time) doesn't make very good sense; going the other way you could take blood samples from every rider, every day, and keep them for retrospective testing (i.e. years later) and then you might stand a chance of demonstrating that riders were (or were not) 'drug free' to some current and agreed standard, with retrospective penalties to match. But as well as the logistics of actually doing this, at any time there are 'drugs', 'medicines' and 'unknowns'; the boundaries between these are to be defined and argued over.

Another problem is that while testing of athletes' blood was not as sharp as it is now, for some things, testing of athletes' food for contaminants was also not as sharp. I think Contador still protests he ate tainted steak...
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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pete75
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Re: 2011 Vuelta result revision

Postby pete75 » 30 Jun 2019, 5:33pm

Postboxer wrote:The thing is, had he won the Vuelta in 2011, maybe he would have been the lead rider in 2012, the general public don't know Froome as much as Wiggins, possibly down to this, or possibly because Wiggins was already on the radar from the Olympics, then had that magic year in 2012 when he won the Tour, opened the Olympics then won gold.



It didn't help that Froome rode for Kenya in the Olympics.