Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

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Anthony.R.Brown
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Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet.

Below is The Cycling TT Modern Technology Advantage Formula... {MTAF}

A = Based on (Chris Boardman using a {MTAF} Track bike with a distance of 56.375 km)

B = and (Chris Boardman using a Normal Track bike with a distance of 49.441 km)

C = The Advantage difference in Km

D : 1 Hour/60 Minutes

E : The Advantage in Minutes

(A : 56.375 km) - (B : 49.441 km) = (C : 6.934 km)

(D : 60) / (C : 6.934 km) = (E : 8.65301413326)

Then...

(E : 8.65301413326) / (D : 60) = 0.144216902221 (for every Minute a rider,rides using a {MTAF} bike

Example if a rider rides for 60 Minutes then we calculate...

60 x 0.144216902221 = 8.65301413326 Minutes Advantage.


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Just How Fast Could Eddy Merckx Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

So for anyone who has been living on the Planet No! Cycling :( for the last 50 years or so and have never heard of Eddy Merckx ?

Many consider Eddy Merckx to not only be the finest rider of his generation, but also the finest rider in the history of professional cycle racing.

The Belgian won pretty much everything there was to win – and often many times over. From Grand Tours to Classics, Merckx amassed a total of 525 victories in a career that spanned the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s.

In the mountains, on the flat, in sprints, on the cobbles – whatever the terrain, ‘The Cannibal’ showed no weakness. Merckx belongs to an elite club of riders who have won the Tour de France five times, and he holds the record for the most Tour stage wins: 34. He also won the Giro d’Italia five times, and the Vuelta a España once.

Merckx conquered every major one-day race, with victories in Paris-Roubaix, Milan-San Remo, Tour of Flanders, Liege-Bastogne-Liege, the Tour of Lombardy and the world championships.

Merckx’s involvement with cycling continued after his retirement from racing in 1978, with his eponymously-named bicycle company, his involvement with race organisation and as an ambassador for the sport.

For a list of Merckx’s victories, visit the Eddy Merckx Rider Profile page below...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/late ... 1614792206

And the Wiki link...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx


Back to this Thread what I am sure we would all like to know is just how Fast Eddy could have gone using all the latest Modern Technology Advances ?

And for that I will give the best comparison I can think of using his Hour Record time,converted using {MTAF} compared to the Best Human Effort ( UCI Absolute Record) using all the Modern Technology Advances,done by Chris Boardman.

Below is the {MTAF} doing just that...

1972, Eddy Merckx set a new hour record at 49.431 km

If a rider rides for 60 Minutes then we calculate...

60 x 0.144216902221 = 8.65301413326 Minutes Advantage

So for Eddy's 49.431 km using the above he would have done the distance in 60 - 8.65301413326 = 51.3469858667 (51.34) Minutes

49.431 km / 51.34 Minutes = 0.962816517335

0.962816517335 x 60 Minutes = 57.76899104 km

58 km - 57.76899104 km = 0.23100896 (57 + 0.23100896) = 57.23100896 (57.231) km for 1 Hour (60.00) Minutes

Which compared to the current Record holder below...

1996 Chris Boardman 56.375 km for 1 Hour (60.00) Minutes

57.231 - 56.375 = 0.856

Which Makes Eddy Merckx's distance just better than Chris Boardman's

And the True Best Human Effort ( UCI Absolute Record) holder


Eddy's Hour...

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Eddy Merckx - Hour Record (1972 Mexico City)

[youtube]4ACuagWkGk4[/youtube]





Anthony.R.Brown 08/03/2021

Former Chelmer CC
Last edited by Anthony.R.Brown on 9 Mar 2021, 4:05pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Just How Fast Could A.R.Engers Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

So for anyone who has been living on the Planet No! Cycling :( for the last 50 years or so and have never heard of A.R Engers ?

Alf was known as "The King" in the UK Cycling TT community and I am sure even known in other countries for some of the rides he done,most notably was that he was the first rider to break the 50 Minute barrier for a 25 mile TT with a time of 49.24

1978 A.R Engers Unity CC 49.24 Below is a link showing some info about the King himself...

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/0 ... -its-easy/

Back to this Thread what I am sure we would all like to know is just how Fast Alf could have gone using all the latest Modern Technology Advances ?

Below is the {MTAF} doing just that...

49.24 x 0.144216902221 = 7.10124026531 Minutes Advantage

49.24 - 7.10124026531 = 42.1387597347 (42.13) for a 25 mile TT

Which compared to the current Record holder below...

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58

42.58 - 42.13 = 0.45

Makes King Alf the True 25 mile TT Record holder! :)


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What is interesting about the article above...
It says Alf could have gone four to five minutes faster using Modern Technology if he rode on the same course the R25/3H,as the current record holder Marcin Bialoblocki :)
Alf himself said the course is one to two minutes faster,than the E72 where he rode and broke the 50 minute barrier.

So let's say the article is correct that the R25/3H is five minutes faster because of Modern Technology,and that Alf is correct that the course is two minutes faster,then we end up with an almost identical calculation of 7 Minutes Advantage :) as to how fast Alf could have gone,using {MTAF} compaired to M.Bialoblocki shown below and at the beginning of this thread.

Below is the {MTAF} doing just that...
1978 A.R Engers Unity CC 49.24 - E72
49.24 x 0.144216902221 = 7.10124026531 Minutes Advantage
49.24 - 7.10124026531 = 42.1387597347 (42.13) for a 25 mile TT

Which compared to the current Record holder below...
2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58 R25/3H – 11/09/2016
42.58 - 42.13 = 0.45
Makes King Alf the True 25 mile TT Record holder! :)


Below are some Great photo's of Alf...

https://www.ttlegends.org/men-cyclists/?mid=1106

Some of my Favourites...

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Genius comes in many forms... Alf "The Badass Baker" :)

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Anthony.R.Brown 08/03/2021

Former Chelmer CC
Last edited by Anthony.R.Brown on 12 Mar 2021, 11:40am, edited 13 times in total.
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Just How Fast Could I.S Cammish Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

So for anyone who has been living on the Planet No! Cycling for the last 50 years or so and have never heard of I.S Cammish ?

Ian Scott Cammish is an English time trial cyclist. He dominated British time trialling in the 1980s, holding the Road Time Trials Council’s British Best All-Rounder for nine years – 1980 to 1985 consecutively and 1987 to 1989 consecutively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Cammish

Back to this Thread what I am sure we would all like to know is just how Fast Ian could have gone using all the latest Modern Technology Advances ?

Below is the {MTAF} doing just that...

First for the 50 Mile TT

1983 I.S Cammish GS Strada 1:39.51

1:39.51 x 0.144216902221 = 14.35102394 Minutes Advantage

1:39.51 - 14.35102394 = (1:25.15897606) (1:25.15) for a 50 mile TT

Which compared to the current Record holder below...

2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 1:30.31

1:30.31 - 1:25.15 = 5.16

Makes I.S Cammish the True 50 mile TT Record holder! :)


Now the 100 Mile TT

1983 I.S Cammish GS Strada 3:31.53

3:31.53 x 0.144216902221 = 31.6570522063 Minutes Advantage

3:31.53 - 31.6570522063 = (2:59.8729477937) (2:59.9) for a 100 mile TT

Which compared to the current Record holder below...

2019 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 3:13.37

3:13.37 - 2:59.9 = 13.38

Makes I.S Cammish the True 100 mile TT Record holder! :)


Below are some Great photo's of Ian :)

https://www.ttlegends.org/men-cyclists/?mid=554

Some of my Favourites...

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Ian aging well...and still able to show the younger generation how it's done :)


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Anthony.R.Brown 08/03/2021

Former Chelmer CC
Last edited by Anthony.R.Brown on 12 Mar 2021, 11:42am, edited 6 times in total.
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Anthony.R.Brown
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M.Bialoblocki - True TT Records Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Modern Technology,Aerodynamic Carbon Frames,Tri Bars,Carbon Disk Wheels,Tri Disk Front Wheels,Aerodynamic Helmet.

Below is The Cycling TT Modern Technology Advantage Formula... {MTAF}

A = Based on (Chris Boardman using a {MTAF} Track bike with a distance of 56.375 km)
B = and (Chris Boardman using a Normal Track bike with a distance of 49.441 km)
C = The Advantage difference in Km
D : 1 Hour/60 Minutes
E : The Advantage in Minutes

(A : 56.375 km) - (B : 49.441 km) = (C : 6.934 km)

(D : 60) / (C : 6.934 km) = (E : 8.65301413326)

Then...

(E : 8.65301413326) / (D : 60) = 0.144216902221 (for every Minute a rider,rides using a {MTAF} bike

Example if a rider rides for 60 Minutes then we calculate...

60 x 0.144216902221 = 8.65301413326 Minutes Advantage.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are the current Records held by M.Bialoblocki

10 Miles - 2016 M.Bialoblocki One Pro Cycling Ltd 16.35

15 Miles - 2019 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ0 26.35

25 Miles - 2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58

50 Miles - 2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 1:30.31

100 Miles - 2019 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 3:13.37

Then apply the {MTAF} to each time...


10 Miles - (16.35) x 0.144216902221 = 2.3579463513 Advantage
(16.35) + 2.3579463513 = 18.7079463513 (18.29) True time.


15 Miles - (26.35) x 0.144216902221 = 3.8001153735 Advantage
(26.35) + 3.8001153735 = 30.1501153735 (30.15) True time.


25 Miles - (42.58) x 0.144216902221 = 6.14075569653 Advantage
(42.58) + 6.14075569653 = 48.7207556965 (48.27) True time.


50 Miles - (1:30.31) x 0.144216902221 = 13.0242284395 Advantage
(1:30.31) + 13.0242284395 = 1:43.3342284395 (1:43.33) True time.


100 Miles - (3:13.37) x 0.144216902221 = 27.8872223823 Advantage
(3:13.37) + 27.8872223823 = 3:41.2572223823 ( 3:41.25) True time.


Below is M.Bialoblocki's current TT Records Average...

10 Miles - 2016 M.Bialoblocki One Pro Cycling Ltd 16.35

15 Miles - 2019 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ0 26.35

25 Miles - 2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 42.58

50 Miles - 2018 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 1:30.31

100 Miles - 2019 M.Bialoblocki NOPINZ 3:13.37

Total = 368.96 / 5 = (73.792) Minutes


Below is M.Bialoblocki's {MTAF} TT Records Average...

10 Miles - (16.35) x 0.144216902221 = 2.3579463513 Advantage
(16.35) + 2.3579463513 = 18.7079463513 (18.29) True time.

15 Miles - (26.35) x 0.144216902221 = 3.8001153735 Advantage
(26.35) + 3.8001153735 = 30.1501153735 (30.15) True time.

25 Miles - (42.58) x 0.144216902221 = 6.14075569653 Advantage
(42.58) + 6.14075569653 = 48.7207556965 (48.27) True time.

50 Miles - (1:30:31) x 0.144216902221 = 13.0242284395 Advantage
(1:30.31) + 13.0242284395 = 1:43.3342284395 (1:43.33) True time.

100 Miles - (3:13.37) x 0.144216902221 = 27.8872223823 Advantage
(3:13.37) + 27.8872223823 = 3:41.2572223823 ( 3:41.25) True time.

Total = 421.29 / 5 = (84.258) Minutes

(84.258) - (73.792) = 10.466 Minutes


Below is a photo of M.Bialoblocki using all the Modern Technology.

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Anthony.R.Brown 09/03/2021

Former Chelmer CC
Last edited by Anthony.R.Brown on 12 Mar 2021, 11:46am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by pq »

There are a number of problems with those calculations, not least of which is that when Boardman did his aero hour, he was probably at his peak or close to it. When he did the non-aero hour he was very much past his best. So you're not comparing like with like. Interesting nevertheless.
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

pq wrote:There are a number of problems with those calculations, not least of which is that when Boardman did his aero hour, he was probably at his peak or close to it. When he did the non-aero hour he was very much past his best. So you're not comparing like with like. Interesting nevertheless.


The {MTAF} is based on the same rider under the same conditions! so it's sound,and I am sure Boardman was at least equal in both of his rides,especially the fact that the first ride was done on a Modern bike and the second using a Normal bike where he managed to beat a Cycling legend,even though only slightly... the one and only Eddy Merckx. :wink:




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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Brucey »

there's traffic to consider too. IIRC Engers did his best rides on busy dual carriageways, sometimes occupying most of the road in such a way as overtaking traffic gave him the maximum benefit. This sort of thing will mess up calculations no end.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pneumant
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Pneumant »

Interesting thread re modern materials although the premise could equally be applied to any sport, era and results. The Merckx hour bike was at the cutting edge of technology back in 1972. I have read that the stem and spokes were titanium, the chain and handlebars were drilled and the special tubs were 70g each. The steel frame (made by Colnago) was 0.4mm thick with 0.6mm fork tubes. Many thanks for posting the pictures of Alf Engers, he really did have a very good position on the bike.
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Postboxer »

I'm still not convinced that different riders would get exactly the same benefit from different bikes, there are different ways of going faster, being more powerful, being more aerodynamic.
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by pq »

The {MTAF} is based on the same rider under the same conditions! so it's sound,and I am sure Boardman was at least equal in both of his rides,especially the fact that the first ride was done on a Modern bike and the second using a Normal bike where he managed to beat a Cycling legend,even though only slightly... the one and only Eddy Merckx.


But that just isn't the case. His non-aero hour was the last pro ride he did. His pro career ended becasue of health issues which worsened as he aged and impacted his results. The aero hour was done when those effect were much less pronounced, again reflected in his results at the time.

This stuff is interesting, but whatever method you use will throw up inaccuracies. Better to talk about them than sweep them under the carpet.

It would be interesting to repeat the exercise based on estimated power output.
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

Brucey wrote:there's traffic to consider too. IIRC Engers did his best rides on busy dual carriageways, sometimes occupying most of the road in such a way as overtaking traffic gave him the maximum benefit. This sort of thing will mess up calculations no end.

cheers


There will always be good and bad days for any ride,the important thing is that the {MTAF} Is based on the same rider under the same conditions,so it is sound! in the long run it will be as accurate as possible,especially if a rider does a lot of rides.




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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

pq wrote:
The {MTAF} is based on the same rider under the same conditions! so it's sound,and I am sure Boardman was at least equal in both of his rides,especially the fact that the first ride was done on a Modern bike and the second using a Normal bike where he managed to beat a Cycling legend,even though only slightly... the one and only Eddy Merckx.


But that just isn't the case. His non-aero hour was the last pro ride he did. His pro career ended becasue of health issues which worsened as he aged and impacted his results. The aero hour was done when those effect were much less pronounced, again reflected in his results at the time.

This stuff is interesting, but whatever method you use will throw up inaccuracies. Better to talk about them than sweep them under the carpet.

It would be interesting to repeat the exercise based on estimated power output.


All riders have peaks and times when they are losing their fitness,like age etc. the important thing is that it was done when both riders were close to their best,because they only done it once using a Normal track bike,and said it was enough in their life!

Below are both bikes showing the Tech was equal!...

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pq
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by pq »

The tech wasn't equal. Boardman pushed what was possible within the rules to the absolute limit which gave him aero advantages over Merckx. And you haven't answered the point I made earlier other than to assert you're right more forcefully.

As I said before, these sorts of comparisons are interesting and worthwhile but you are never comparing like with like - it's a shame you insist that you are.

I'll bow out at this point.
One link to your website is enough. G
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Anthony.R.Brown
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Anthony.R.Brown »

pq wrote:The tech wasn't equal. Boardman pushed what was possible within the rules to the absolute limit which gave him aero advantages over Merckx. And you haven't answered the point I made earlier other than to assert you're right more forcefully.

As I said before, these sorts of comparisons are interesting and worthwhile but you are never comparing like with like - it's a shame you insist that you are.

I'll bow out at this point.


OK Thank you for the reply,I am sure the Hour Record Officials that passed both records into the record books,know more than both of us! :)



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Mike Sales
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Re: Just How Fast Could They Have Gone ? - Using {MTAF}

Post by Mike Sales »

No pictures of The Greatest Living Scotsman and aerodynamicist?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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