Time Trials on dual carriageways.

[Vorpal]

Time trials, for most cyclists are no more risky than any other sort of cycling, and in many cases they are much less risky. Certainly the time trials sponsored by my club on quiet country lanes are less risky than city commuting. Not only is there a much lower traffic density, but the course has been risk assessed, and club members have been known to go out and sweep corners and fill in holes. I'm certain that my clubmates aren't the only cyclists in Britain to do things like that.

p.s. road races are more likely to result in injury than time trials; is that a good reason to encourage them?

p.p.s. a few folks might resent that bit about 'proper' racing

p.p.p.s. Not everyone can or wants to compete in a massed start road race

[1942alexander]

Furthermore men over the age of 40 wearing lycra, which is 90% of time triallists, are an obscenity. That coupled with their evident incontinence and their need to urinate, at or near the start of every race, in plain view of motorists and passers by, gives continent cyclists a bad name.

Does this mean, at over seventy years old, I should be wearing a flat cap, woolly sweater and plus fours with a plastic bag strapped to my leg, when I race or does wearing "Spandex" not lycra exclude me from your venomous utterances?

[pete75]

Time trials per se are not a good idea and only came about because of the 'anti-cycling' stance back in the distant past preventing massed start road races. Track racing and road racing are proper racing and should be encouraged to develop young racers who can 'race' - using their bike handling skills and their tactical wits.

In that case why are there time trialling stages in major stage races like the Giro and the tour? Why did top professional riders compete in events like the Grand Prix de Nations and the Barrachi trophy for so many years and why was winning them so highly regarded? Why were Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain so renowned for their ability to ride against the clock?

[gerrythemerc]

In response to the comment about the Barrachi Trophy and past champions I'd like to say that time trial stages in grand tours are very good from a spectator point of view as you see all the riders giving it some welly while you sit in comfort supping a lager - great. Thats part of the reason for inclusion apart from the effect on the GC. Of course many past champions were good against the clock. BUT they could ride any course under great pressure. My argument is that UK timetrialing evolved from quiet lanes providing sporting courses with no assistance. The natural gravitation to 'fast' courses has occurred over time because a rider can get a better time. That's due to the fine road surface, the flatness of the course (it might include a start with 1 mile downhill where you can clock 50mph or so), the assistance from passing traffic - but it means nothing in the real racing world. Even the bikes have evolved to become very expensive and no use for anything else. You certainly can't ride out to the event, do a ride and then go on the club run can you! Its just an enjoyable (for some) type of racing but a blind alley for young talent. Youngsters should ride the track and then after a couple years, maybe at 18 ride the road,including time trials. The time trials should be on sporting courses and not on courses designed to give good times. Old guys can do what they like but youngsters need nurturing physically but more importantly mentally and time trials are not the way to do it if you want to keep them.

[thirdcrank]

... I'd like to say that time trial stages in grand tours are very good from a spectator point of view as you see all the riders giving it some welly while you sit in comfort supping a lager - great. ...

Strange though it may seem, not everybody knows that. A few years ago, I was watching a TT stage on Eurosport commented by Duffers. In another attempt to get his own section in Private Eye, he remarked along the lines "Look at all those poor people - they'll be stuck there all day."

Sorry - back to dragstrips.

[pete75]

In response to the comment about the Barrachi Trophy and past champions I'd like to say that time trial stages in grand tours are very good from a spectator point of view as you see all the riders giving it some welly while you sit in comfort supping a lager - great....
Its just an enjoyable (for some) type of racing but a blind alley for young talent.....

Ah you're a lager drinker. That explains a lot.....


It certainly proved a blind alley for Chris Boardman didn't it?

[gerrythemerc]

Pete 75 implied that drinking lager had something to do with my opinion on 'time trials'. Well Pete, sitting in the spring sunshine watching the Giro - the only birra available was a very pleasant lager as is normally the case sur le continent as they don't do bitter. Normally I drink bitter produced dann saff but often brews from the Midlands and the North - so I have balanced view of things I reckon.
But back to cycle racing- I've watched road stages of the Giro and the the Tour out on the course and at the finish line and its a lot of pain for little gain. I'd rather see it on the box so I see everything - its only marred by the terrible commentary standard that we have been subjected to on BBC/ITV. A grand tour time trial stage is very enjoyable because your out in the sunshine, its usually comfortable, there a good atmosphere and you see each rider in action. Chris Boardman was an excellent roadman, trackman and timetriallist - not just a timetriallist. Bradley Wiggins likewise and many others before. Barry Hoban was a good timetriallist before he went across the water and became a roadman sprinter of note. Sean Yates and Tony Doyle were super timetriallists but fortunately went on to fufill their promise in cycling in real racing. If they had stayed in England they could have been famous for pounding up and down the 'Boro' ?? What a waste that would have been is my point.

[pete75]

My point was that Boardman started and developed his career as a time trialist so it's hardly the dead end you imply.
Some enjoy competing in road races, some in time trials and some in both. I see no reason why any one of these groups should knock the enjoyment of any of the others. You obviously do. I wonder why?

Barolo is the stuff to drink in Italy and maybe a little grappa.

[eileithyia]

Interesting how this thread has evolved; I don't think nayone would dispute that domestic time trialling is not necesaarily the way forward for an up and coming youngster in the sport of cycle racing, however.....

As pointed out Boardman, Yates, Wiggo have all done top rides in the tours and in the time trials. Many top riders cut their teeth in domestic club time trials.
You may not win a Grand Tour by being a timetriallist, but you can certainly lose one by not being able to time trial, look at the contests between Schleck and Contador, Schleck just cannot time trial (though I guess he would beat me in the Wobbley Wheelers 10).

We have a couple up and coming young riders on our domestic pro scene, both cut their teeth in local TT's, at least one of them helped drive a break in the ToB a couple of years back, as an unknown it was easy to think they would be caught, but add to the mix that he had been junior tt champion and just maybe you might think the break would have a chance to stay away....

This same young man was guest at our dinner and gave a big thumbs up to domestic TT-ing as an excellent starter point for anyone coming into the sport.

[Big T]

In response to the comment about the Barrachi Trophy and past champions I'd like to say that time trial stages in grand tours are very good from a spectator point of view as you see all the riders giving it some welly while you sit in comfort supping a lager - great. Thats part of the reason for inclusion apart from the effect on the GC. Of course many past champions were good against the clock. BUT they could ride any course under great pressure. My argument is that UK timetrialing evolved from quiet lanes providing sporting courses with no assistance. The natural gravitation to 'fast' courses has occurred over time because a rider can get a better time. That's due to the fine road surface, the flatness of the course (it might include a start with 1 mile downhill where you can clock 50mph or so), the assistance from passing traffic - but it means nothing in the real racing world. Even the bikes have evolved to become very expensive and no use for anything else. You certainly can't ride out to the event, do a ride and then go on the club run can you! Its just an enjoyable (for some) type of racing but a blind alley for young talent. Youngsters should ride the track and then after a couple years, maybe at 18 ride the road,including time trials. The time trials should be on sporting courses and not on courses designed to give good times. Old guys can do what they like but youngsters need nurturing physically but more importantly mentally and time trials are not the way to do it if you want to keep them.

So, all youngsters should ride the track, eh? That's fine if you live in Manchester or Newport, but not so good if you live in Norwich, or Nottingham or just about anywhere else except the very few cities where there is a track. One thing in favour of TT's is that they are accessible, most racing clubs have an evening TT series that youngsters can ride.

My son grew up riding time trials in the summer and cyclo-cross in the winter. He won the bronze in the national youth TT champs in 2005. He did progress to road racing. He also rode the World cyclo-cross champs in 2006 and he was the Eastern Region Road Race Champion in 2012. Riding TT's as a youngster didn't seem to do him any harm. Alex Dowsett also started out doing TT's and he seems to be doing OK too.

[gerrythemerc]

Of course its nice to give account of those who stuck at it and 'made it', however they got there, to whatever level.
There are many more tracks out there than you mention albeit outdoor, that are well utilised. It is nice to be indoors on the boards but not essential. My original point in all this discussion is that more 15,16, 17 yr olds would stay in cycle racing if it were more fun, which track racing is. Time trials are hard and kids are easily discouraged. At that age they should be enjoying their cycling on the track, circuit races and club runs.
To finish my input I also think there shouldn't be championships, etc until 18yrs old. It's fairly meaningless, rewarding bigger built kids and discouraging late developers. The big kid will drop out when his 'advantage' has melted away. The smaller kid if he sticks at it will probably become something at whatever level but a lot will be attracted to something else that is more fun.
Kids need it to be enjoyable with no responsibilities or expectations and more would stay in cycling for life.

[Vorpal]

Of course its nice to give account of those who stuck at it and 'made it', however they got there, to whatever level.
There are many more tracks out there than you mention albeit outdoor, that are well utilised. It is nice to be indoors on the boards but not essential. My original point in all this discussion is that more 15,16, 17 yr olds would stay in cycle racing if it were more fun, which track racing is. Time trials are hard and kids are easily discouraged. At that age they should be enjoying their cycling on the track, circuit races and club runs.
To finish my input I also think there shouldn't be championships, etc until 18yrs old. It's fairly meaningless, rewarding bigger built kids and discouraging late developers. The big kid will drop out when his 'advantage' has melted away. The smaller kid if he sticks at it will probably become something at whatever level but a lot will be attracted to something else that is more fun.
Kids need it to be enjoyable with no responsibilities or expectations and more would stay in cycling for life.

Time trials are as hard as the participants make them. Kids who are keen enjoy club time trials when they are old enough to ride them. Certainly for younger children, other alternatives may be more fun. But many clubs also run cyclcross events or grass tracks events that kids can participate in.

It is important to have a variety of things available for children so that they stay interested, whatever aspect of cycling they prefer. That includes competition.

[Edwards]

Time trials are as hard as the participants make them. Kids who are keen enjoy club time trials when they are old enough to ride them.

What about the pushy parents that live their sport through their children. This also applies to track and any other form of competitive sport.
There is a correct time and place for every child to start competitive cycling and some children are very competitive.
I wonder about the age that children should start serious competition on the roads and do not know the answer, but unfortunately so do some of the parents.

As for the original point about time trials and dual carriageways then I feel that adults can make their own minds up, but have some reservations about some children.

As for wearing Lycra I am not am qualified member of the fashion police and nor do I want to be.

[meic]

To finish my input I also think there shouldn't be championships, etc until 18yrs old. It's fairly meaningless, rewarding bigger built kids and discouraging late developers. The big kid will drop out when his 'advantage' has melted away. The smaller kid if he sticks at it will probably become something at whatever level but a lot will be attracted to something else that is more fun.

Isnt this the very essence of sport? It is competitive, with winners and losers.
Following the logic above only one person in the world should bother entering any championships.


Possibly the attraction of cycling sport, to those remaining, is that the "natural" athletes do in fact go and play football instead and leave cycling to those who have what it takes to stick with it.

[Big T]

One of the good things about TTing, is the fact that you are racing against yourself, trying to beat your previous time for that course and distance, so it doesn't really matter if you are a winner or a loser.

My lad started at 12, his first 10 mile took 33 minutes, by the end of his first season got that down to a 27. He then steadily progressed, knocking a minute or so off his best each year. These were all done on our local club 10 course, with an annual ride in the GHS champs to test hmself against others of the same age. His medal winning ride in the GHS at 16 was a 22.05, on a single carraigeway circuit course near Cambridge, on a wet and windy day. Dowsett won it with 20.47, I think.

There are some outdoor tracks around the country, but none with 60 miles of where we live any more since the Nottingham track closed. My lad did cyclocross, circuit racing and TTing, and a bit of MTBing too. Youngsters shouldn't concentrate solely on time trials, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't ride them at all. Club TT's are valuable training, teaching them to ride fast on their own, a useful skill when road racing. My lad never had a proper TT bike, just fitting £30 tribars to his road bike and riding TT's on small gears helped teach him to pedal fast.