DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
Labrat
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Labrat » 19 Mar 2016, 11:19pm

Steady rider wrote:The 'Objects' do not contain any reference to promoting the CTC or increasing its profile or branding. 1.8.25 does not directly apply to branding.


You don't seem to get the concept of objectives - 1.8.25 allows them to do anything legal they think is appropriate to further the objectives - if they think that rebranding will help them better deliver the objectives in 1.7 then they not only have the power to, but are under a duty to do so.

The whole articles are based on the given name and without provision to change that name or re - brand. The Objects and support for them also stems from the membership. If a significant number of members object to a brand name change, it may be counter productive. My view is, if the Articles had details for providing a new brand name that would have been sufficient to proceed with due care but as they stand the case is not sufficiently strong.


you still don't seem to understand that 1.8.25 allows them to do anything legal to in order to further the objectives. Now, anyone is perfectly able to disagree with that on a personal basis, and to vote against it in a poll - but fifteen out of sixteen councillors appear to have been convinced by the arguments put in front of them that rebranding would better enable the club to deliver its objectives - for Philip to then accuse them of being unfit to serve in their role for doing (as opposed to disagreeing with them on the substance of the decision, which he has a perfect right to do) so is completely out of order, especially since, as i have pointed out, he has not been able to point to a single rule of the club that they have breached or an objective that they have failed to consider or fulfil.

PH
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby PH » 19 Mar 2016, 11:43pm

We are still a membership organisation, or so we were told at the time of the charity vote, we voted to become a membership charity, my subs get me membership. I don't believe fulfilling the obligations of the charity and satisfying the membership are mutually exclusive, if they are we were conned. It isn't enough for the trustees to say this course of action is in the best interests of the charity, because it isn't the only course of action available, for a start it's different from what was recommended by the first lot of consultants engaged. It isn't a choice between fulfilling the charitable objectives or not, it's a choice on how to fulfill those objectives. The membership are perfectly entitled to have their say in how they want that done, if they're not how can they possibly still be members?

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 19 Mar 2016, 11:54pm

PH wrote:We are still a membership organisation, or so we were told at the time of the charity vote, we voted to become a membership charity, my subs get me membership. I don't believe fulfilling the obligations of the charity and satisfying the membership are mutually exclusive, if they are we were conned. It isn't enough for the trustees to say this course of action is in the best interests of the charity, because it isn't the only course of action available, for a start it's different from what was recommended by the first lot of consultants engaged. It isn't a choice between fulfilling the charitable objectives or not, it's a choice on how to fulfill those objectives. The membership are perfectly entitled to have their say in how they want that done, if they're not how can they possibly still be members?

I mentioned somewhere else (so sorry, I'm repeating myself but unsure which thread/where I mentioned it), but I'm a member of several membership clubs that are charities (and qualify for Gift Aid) and the membership have a full say in what the club does and how they do it. Of course they have Chairman, Secretary, Membership Secretary, Officers, etc on a Committee. But there are club get togethers every week with more formal bigger meetings (normally with a talk) every couple of weeks and members have discussions and a say. But for more important things there are forums/e-mail lists, etc. so the membership has a full say in how the club operates.

So, whilst I'm no expert in charity rules/law etc. it certainly can be done if the organisation wants to run in such a manner.

Ian

PH
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby PH » 20 Mar 2016, 12:07am

Psamathe wrote:
So, whilst I'm no expert in charity rules/law etc. it certainly can be done if the organisation wants to run in such a manner.

Ian

Yes, the whole argument that we have to do this because we are a charity is bogus, complete tosh.

Labrat
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Labrat » 20 Mar 2016, 12:56am

PH wrote: It isn't a choice between fulfilling the charitable objectives or not, it's a choice on how to fulfill those objectives.


Agreed, however they don't need to put every operational decision in front of the whole club, something that had been flagged as a possibility for two years, thats why you elect them

The membership are perfectly entitled to have their say in how they want that done, if they're not how can they possibly still be members?


They have that right - a poll of the whole club has been called, in accordance with the rules

That, in my opinion, is a completley different issue from the way Philip has been going round calling people incompetent, corrupt and unfit to serve

In fact it seems to have been a one man war to oppose CTC council ever since he didn't get reelected.

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby PH » 20 Mar 2016, 8:00am

Labrat wrote:
PH wrote: It isn't a choice between fulfilling the charitable objectives or not, it's a choice on how to fulfill those objectives.


Agreed, however they don't need to put every operational decision in front of the whole club, something that had been flagged as a possibility for two years, thats why you elect them


The change of name isn't just some other operational matter, it's a fundamental change that should have been better consulted on, then possibly been shortlisted, then presented to the members either at an AGM or in some other way. The idea of a name change has been under discussion for at lot longer than 2 years, no one I've spoken to expected it to be presented as a fait accompli. It shouldn't have needed a petition for the membership to have their say, it's a failure of management that this has come about, not some single member or group.
That, in my opinion, is a completley different issue from the way Philip has been going round calling people incompetent, corrupt and unfit to serve
In fact it seems to have been a one man war to oppose CTC council ever since he didn't get reelected.

I think it's too big an issue to get bogged down with the personalities, he isn't the person I'd have chosen to front this opposition, but he is the one who actually did it, the petition has involved far more CTC members than the consultation.
There are questions about how the executive are influencing the council, it's composition as well as it's decisions. When most councilors stand unopposed, Phillip stood against people who seem to have joined CTC specifically to oppose him. Wouldn't you be making a fuss if that happened to you? I know I would.

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 20 Mar 2016, 9:40am

Labrat wrote:...
The membership are perfectly entitled to have their say in how they want that done, if they're not how can they possibly still be members?


They have that right - a poll of the whole club has been called, in accordance with the rules

That, in my opinion, is a completley different issue from the way Philip has been going round calling people incompetent, corrupt and unfit to serve

In fact it seems to have been a one man war to oppose CTC council ever since he didn't get reelected.

Whilst I think the new name/logo/branding is pretty lame and will actually detract from the CTC as it currently presents itself I think a significant aspect to the petition Philip has coordinated is that it reminds the club organisers that they do have a membership and that the membership needs to be involved in significant decisions (and a change of effective name, focus and re-branding is pretty major). Many see the change of name as yet another step in the direction away from what the organisation is/was. This feeling is made worse when the CEO comes out with lame unjustified and rather insulting (to people with any intelligence) comments about how the new branding is going to enhance the organisations touring offerings. Even a teeny bit of justification as to how might have made him sound less like a politician who has made a mistake and is worming out of the situation.

As to Philip's other criticisms - the difficulty is that the club has become completely detached from it's membership. Organisers regard them as irrelevant and have no interest in their opinions. Were the club to engage with the membership (including Philip) then I would expect things to play out very differently and I suspect the club would achieve a lot more. Certainly their focus on the re-branding seems to be detracting from their whole raison-d'etre (missing things that previously justified their attention - for the good of cyclists, although that said "touring cyclists" so maybe "under new management" no longer part of their remit?).

Ian

Bicycler
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Bicycler » 20 Mar 2016, 11:32am

PH wrote:
Labrat wrote:They don't need to put every operational decision in front of the whole club, something that had been flagged as a possibility for two years, thats why you elect them


The change of name isn't just some other operational matter, it's a fundamental change that should have been better consulted on, then possibly been shortlisted, then presented to the members either at an AGM or in some other way. The idea of a name change has been under discussion for at lot longer than 2 years, no one I've spoken to expected it to be presented as a fait accompli. It shouldn't have needed a petition for the membership to have their say, it's a failure of management that this has come about, not some single member or group.

Agreed.

I'll also add that whilst changing a brand name is almost certainly within the council's powers, I think this change might be against the spirit and intention of the Articles. The Articles do not give Council the power to change the organisation's name. Council are getting round this problem by instituting a de facto name change whilst leaving the formal name in the Articles unchanged. I suspect that such a situation was never envisaged when drafting the Articles or the Council's powers. The organisation's name was probably imagined as more than a mere administrative detail with no relevance outside the Articles themselves.

Steady rider
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 20 Mar 2016, 2:52pm

The name was changed from the Bicycle Touring Club to the Cyclist's Touring Club in 1883, by renaming the club. The articles are approved for the use of the Cyclist's Touring Club without detailed provision for a change of name or brand.

As discussed previously;
1.8.25 To do all such other lawful things as are incidental or conducive to the attainment of the
above objects or any of them.


This is the nearest but is general and not specific to the name or brand issue.

1.7 The objects for which the Club is established (the Objects) are to:
........1.7.1 promote community participation in healthy recreation by promoting the amateur sport of
cycling, cycle touring and associated amateur sports;
........1.7.2 preserve and protect the health and safety of the public by encouraging and facilitating cycling
and the safety of cyclists;
........1.7.3 advance education by whatever means the trustees think fit, including the provision of cycling,
training and educational activities related to cycling;
........1.7.4 promote the conservation and protection of the environment.


In Articles previously used by the CTC they have included promoting the CTC as part of the 'Objects' but the current 'Objects' do not include promoting the CTC. All of the above Objects are used by the CTC. A brand name may in some people's view have an effect on how well the CTC carries out its role but it is not a primary function of the 'Object' to promote the CTC. The Articles do not make provision for a brand name to be used, they do not provide any mention of using a brand name. The 'Objects and 1.8.25 are approved on the basis of using the Cyclist's Touring Club as the name. It is a poor way to run a cycling club/charity to impose a name without an AGM motion to approve its use, especially when the Articles do not make provision for using a brand name. CTC Council should apologies for not putting the brand name to the AGM for approval.

1.7 The objects for which the Club (Cyclist's Touring Club) is established (the Objects) are to; The 'Objects' of the club are to support the 'Cyclist's Touring Club in its activities to promote cycling and are listed in 1.7.1 - 4', the brand name detracts from the 'Objects' and Articles in one sense, by detracting attention from the Club's full name.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 21 Mar 2016, 8:19pm

FROM FACEBOOK
Paul Hepworth
3 hrs
The terms of reference for the poll of the club are determined by our Memorandum and Articles of association. The outcome of the poll if it goes against a Council motion is to delay by six months. Thereafter it is Council’s duty to do what it thinks is best for the organisation. The poll is not a means of making policy. This is nothing to do with censorship or the twisting of words.
Chair of Council replying to a member query two days ago.
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Dennis_Snape
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Dennis_Snape » 22 Mar 2016, 9:49am

Philip Benstead wrote:FROM FACEBOOK
Paul Hepworth
3 hrs
The terms of reference for the poll of the club are determined by our Memorandum and Articles of association. The outcome of the poll if it goes against a Council motion is to delay by six months. Thereafter it is Council’s duty to do what it thinks is best for the organisation. The poll is not a means of making policy. This is nothing to do with censorship or the twisting of words.
Chair of Council replying to a member query two days ago.


Maybe the Memorandum and Articles of Association needs to be changed, in order to provide some clarity here. How about....'The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many'...... oh no that's not right....hang on I will have another go.......'The needs of the Management outweigh the needs of the Members'...there that's better :twisted: :twisted:

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 4 Apr 2016, 3:55pm

From: Philip Benstead1 <philipbenstead1@gmail.com>
Sent: 04 April 2016 15:48
To: 'Shivaji Shiva'
Cc: 'CTC Council , CTC CEO
Subject: Update 1 - CTC Rebranding - Petition for Poll of the whole club
[38223.0002]

Shivaji

Thank you for your email.
WHY THE POLL
Based up on your reply, you are stating that the CTC councils knows what is best for
the CTC. What is the point of this poll? Point is ascertaining if CTC members agree.

WHAT IS BEST

Given that there may be more than one correct answer to what is best for the CTC, I
disagree with your logic. Please define “best” and the basis that decision was reached.

I would contend that for this poll to be fair, my legal advice stated that, I must be given
sufficient space and access to CTC members to permit my side of the argument to be
heard. Otherwise you would be going down the logic of only one debate and debate
among members is discourage.

ROLLOUT OF THE REBRANDING

I note that the CTC is pushing forward with the role of the Rebranding. Please supply
the legal basis for that course of action.

MECHANISM OF THE POLL
Please convey to me ASAP the nature of the arrangements for the poll in the June/July
edition of cycle and my contribution that I can make.


Thank you for your help in this matter.

Philip Benstead B.Env.Sc. (Hons.) | FORMER CTC Councillor
| Mobile: 0794-980-1698 | Email: philipbenstead1@gmail.com | Westminster, London, SW1

Organizing cycling events/rides and representing cyclist interests in GLA area and Home
Counties since 1988.

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From: Shivaji Shiva [mailto:Shivaji.Shiva@anthonycollins.com]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 5:51 PM
To: Philip Benstead1 <philipbenstead1@gmail.com>
Cc: Paul Tuohy <paul.tuohy@CTC.ORG.UK>
Subject: RE: CTC Rebranding - Petition for Poll of the whole club [38223.0002]

Philip

Thank you for your messages. The Executive Committee met earlier today to discuss this issue and
agree next steps.

Your Petition

Your petition was received and acknowledged by me on Friday last. The initial assessment of the
National Office team is that it is valid with over 200 signatures from members.

The response required is specified by the articles of association of the charity: article 11.3 requires the
details of a valid petition (one with 200 signatures) to be published ‘in the next issue but one of the Club
magazine’.

Arrangements are now in place to ensure that this occurs in the June/July edition.

The Content of the Notice in the Magazine

It will be necessary to consider the most appropriate manner in which to communicate to members the
reasons for the ballot and your concerns. In doing so, the trustees must act in the best interests of the
charity as a whole.

That does not require that:

• the arguments on either side must be set out at equal length, that your views must have equal
exposure via CTC communications channels; or that

• your views should be expressed without editorial control. In order to set out the issues for
members in a responsible and balanced manner, it may be necessary to make changes that go further
than editing for clarity and this would not amount to ‘censorship’ as you have suggested.

The charity will not therefore be providing the assurances you request.

The content of the magazine will be decided in the usual way and we will be in touch again in due
course.

Meanwhile, have a good weekend.

Regards

Shivaji


Shivaji Shiva
Senior Associate
for Anthony Collins Solicitors LLP

Direct dial: 0121 214 3693
Departmental fax: 0121 212 7438
Email: shivaji.shiva@anthonycollins.com

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Bicycler
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Bicycler » 4 Apr 2016, 5:39pm

Ah well, I guess it was always inevitable that the readership will be exposed to two magazines worth of celebrating CUK whilst contrary argument will be confined to small type on page 24.

Thank you for organising the petition Phillip. I don't mean to cause any offence by saying this, but I really do think you should find somebody else to write the statement rather than doing it yourself. As evidenced in the discussions on here, your recent involvement with and subsequent exit from the council risk accusations (however unfounded) of a personal vendetta which would distract from the main argument. I also think it is fair to say that brevity and clarity in written communication are not your strongest attributes. In order to maximise the effectiveness of the limited space I strongly suggest you find a person you trust to make the case in a clear, concise and persuasive manner. May I suggest approaching Chris Juden.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 4 Apr 2016, 6:02pm

Bicycler wrote:Ah well, I guess it was always inevitable that the readership will be exposed to two magazines worth of celebrating CUK whilst contrary argument will be confined to small type on page 24.

Thank you for organising the petition Phillip. I don't mean to cause any offence by saying this, but I really do think you should find somebody else to write the statement rather than doing it yourself. As evidenced in the discussions on here, your recent involvement with and subsequent exit from the council risk accusations (however unfounded) of a personal vendetta which would distract from the main argument. I also think it is fair to say that brevity and clarity in written communication are not your strongest attributes. In order to maximise the effectiveness of the limited space I strongly suggest you find a person you trust to make the case in a clear, concise and persuasive manner. May I suggest approaching Chris Juden.


Don’t worry

I will get it check and rechecked by a number of literate and competent people, some of whom will be CTC members some not, so that all of nuance will be covered. I am aware minus est, sometime it a case of if I had more time, I would have written a shorter email.
Last edited by Philip Benstead on 4 Apr 2016, 6:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 4 Apr 2016, 6:02pm

Bicycler wrote:Ah well, I guess it was always inevitable that the readership will be exposed to two magazines worth of celebrating CUK whilst contrary argument will be confined to small type on page 24.

Thank you for organising the petition Phillip. I don't mean to cause any offence by saying this, but I really do think you should find somebody else to write the statement rather than doing it yourself. As evidenced in the discussions on here, your recent involvement with and subsequent exit from the council risk accusations (however unfounded) of a personal vendetta which would distract from the main argument. I also think it is fair to say that brevity and clarity in written communication are not your strongest attributes. In order to maximise the effectiveness of the limited space I strongly suggest you find a person you trust to make the case in a clear, concise and persuasive manner. May I suggest approaching Chris Juden.


Don’t worry

Don’t worry

I will get it check and rechecked by a number literate and competent people, some of whom will be CTC members some not, so that all of nuance will be covered. I am aware minus est, sometime it a case of if I had more time, I would have written a shorter email.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic