DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 1 Mar 2016, 8:09pm

Philip Benstead wrote:...I have stated many time they should seek election to CTC Council, but they refuse on the grounds they are not qualified. ...

Are you suggesting that members who do not feel qualified for a role as Councillor should stand for election anyway?

Philip Benstead wrote:... Some of these contributors state they barely have any involvement with their local member group, even there is one less than five miles away. ...

Are you suggesting that CTC members who don't engage with their local member group are in some way inferior to those who do?

If you are that is extremely insulting to the 70% or so that have no involvement with MGs or AGs (CJ's figures).
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 1 Mar 2016, 8:18pm

gaz wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:...I have stated many time they should seek election to CTC Council, but they refuse on the grounds they are not qualified. ...

Are you suggesting that members who do not feel qualified for a role as Councillor should stand for election anyway?

Philip Benstead wrote:... Some of these contributors state they barely have any involvement with their local member group, even there is one less than five miles away. ...

Are you suggesting that CTC members who don't engage with their local member group are in some way inferior to those who do?


What is qualified?
If these people had contact CTC members you might find out that there lot of discontent out there, I have 300 sign up for my petition with more on the way. I can't believe that I am o lucky to find all malcontents that are a minority in the CTC

Come on you have to be kidding me , read the rest of the page.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 1 Mar 2016, 9:07pm

I don't expect your poll had much appeal with those who are content with the rebrand decision, it is reasonable to assume it is the malcontents who have responded. You have more than enough signatures to demand a Poll of the Whole Club. That does not surprise me at all.

The last poll of the whole club attracted 600 signatures. Its intention was defeated 75% to 25%. This is a new poll on a new issue and the result of the poll will show the level of discontent across the membership.

I have no intention of pre-judging the result of the poll.
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 1 Mar 2016, 9:22pm

Philip Benstead wrote:So I change my mind to any proposed name change and that the actual vote was taken when I was no longer on council.


The trouble is Philip, your recounting of events is consistently at odds with the actual records as with gaz's link to the ERS voting records which are completely counter to the story as you told it. So too here. The October 2015 Board minutes (when you were on Council and were present) record:

"After the presentation Paul Tuohy thanked everyone for their feed-back and reminded Council that agreement was needed that Campfire have captured the ‘essence’. That is the important point. Councillors agreed unanimously that Campfire had captured the ‘essence’."

http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 171015.pdf

No indication there that you were in disagreement with what was being proposed.

Now we can either concede that over several years despite strong objections from yourself, the minutes have been doctored as an untrue representation of the meetings, with the complicit involvement of all the other Councillors and the ERS or we can come to the other obvious conclusion.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 1 Mar 2016, 10:12pm

TonyR wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:So I change my mind to any proposed name change and that the actual vote was taken when I was no longer on council.


The trouble is Philip, your recounting of events is consistently at odds with the actual records as with gaz's link to the ERS voting records which are completely counter to the story as you told it. So too here. The October 2015 Board minutes (when you were on Council and were present) record:

"After the presentation Paul Tuohy thanked everyone for their feed-back and reminded Council that agreement was needed that Campfire have captured the ‘essence’. That is the important point. Councillors agreed unanimously that Campfire had captured the ‘essence’."

http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 171015.pdf

No indication there that you were in disagreement with what was being proposed.

Now we can either concede that over several years despite strong objections from yourself, the minutes have been doctored as an untrue representation of the meetings, with the complicit involvement of all the other Councillors and the ERS or we can come to the other obvious conclusion.

I was not against the essence and I have never said I was

Also I never said the minutes are doctored, it is they are just bad minute, Look elsewhere for other opinion on that on Facebook.

Regarding the voting of the chair I am getting my years incorrect. On one of the votes for charity status it is my recollection it was the chairs proxies that permitted to be past.

You have not commented on the minorities report.

Also who are you, you are coming very close to calling me a person who knowing miss-leading CTC members.
What is the extent of your knowledge of the CTC Council and it workings and the views of the membership?
Also what has been your contribution to the promotion of the CTC and cycling so I can gauge your level of experience.
I cannot be so lucky to find all the malcontents in the CTC, sorry these may be the ones who take part in the activities of the local groups, they do not count anymore.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

Steady rider
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 2 Mar 2016, 10:02am

How would 'Cycling UK - with sections be viewed, eg Cycling UK - CTC (touring) for example or Cycling UK - Commuters. A list of names added to 'Cycling UK' for the various forms of cycling.
The name CTC - Cycling UK could also be used for perhaps 10 years or more to see if any benefits were noted from adding Cycling UK to the end.
Congratulation to Phillip with gaining support for asking the whole membership.

beardy
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby beardy » 2 Mar 2016, 10:11am

Steady rider wrote:How would 'Cycling UK - with sections be viewed, eg Cycling UK - CTC (touring) for example or Cycling UK - Commuters. A list of names added to 'Cycling UK' for the various forms of cycling.
The name CTC - Cycling UK could also be used for perhaps 10 years or more to see if any benefits were noted from adding Cycling UK to the end.
Congratulation to Phillip with gaining support for asking the whole membership.


That is how I would like to see things progress. What David Cox said in his email does leave it open as a possibility.

The CTC Sections could carry on in their own merry way, doing what they enjoy, calling themselves what they like, wearing what they want under the (distant) umbrella group of Cycling UK.
However CTC does technically "own" the assets of the sections and may wish to retain or control them.
Cycling UK could take on responsibility for changing the world and the CTC could get on with going out for weekly rides just for their own enjoyment.

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 2 Mar 2016, 10:18am

beardy wrote:
Steady rider wrote:How would 'Cycling UK - with sections be viewed, eg Cycling UK - CTC (touring) for example or Cycling UK - Commuters. A list of names added to 'Cycling UK' for the various forms of cycling.
The name CTC - Cycling UK could also be used for perhaps 10 years or more to see if any benefits were noted from adding Cycling UK to the end.
Congratulation to Phillip with gaining support for asking the whole membership.


That is how I would like to see things progress. What David Cox said in his email does leave it open as a possibility.

The CTC Sections could carry on in their own merry way, doing what they enjoy, calling themselves what they like, wearing what they want under the (distant) umbrella group of Cycling UK.
However CTC does technically "own" the assets of the sections and may wish to retain or control them.
Cycling UK could take on responsibility for changing the world and the CTC could get on with going out for weekly rides just for their own enjoyment.

Personally I can't see it making much difference. Whatever "divisions" or "sections" you create, what they do or achieve will be largely dictated by the resources they have available - and those resources will be determined by those who seem to want to discard the "Touring" aspect and "Club" aspect of the CTC. Were members to have a say in the resource allocation they it might be more equitable but the organisation has no interest in "members". So the "Touring" section with a budget of 20p a year and a part time secretary for 1 hr a month will manage to do ... nothing. Resources will always be taken to those parts of the organisation those running it want. And the recent events show that it is Nation Office/employee that are running the show now and that they have no interest in "Touring" or "Club".

Ian

beardy
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby beardy » 2 Mar 2016, 10:39am

So the "Touring" section with a budget of 20p a year and a part time secretary for 1 hr a month will manage to do ... nothing.


I am not sure how much a CTC section needs to carry on with its existence. None of the people involved in running the ones I know about, get paid. The expenses are on the lines of a print run of brochures and a subsidised club meal or event. Often a small donation to an unrelated charity manages to get voted through.

Mostly it is about arranging a rides timetable.

Steady rider
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 2 Mar 2016, 10:45am

One option would be to have the Council members made up in part from the groups, say 5 main groups with a delegate from each plus say 10 regional delegates.
In practice CTC type clubs that provide probably most rides would continue and be supported, otherwise the Council members or others may be replaced at some stage.

Would be name 'CTC - Cycling UK' be OK?

beardy
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby beardy » 2 Mar 2016, 10:51am

Would be name 'CTC - Cycling UK' be OK?


Not a deal breaker, I would have thought. I imagine that there would be disagreement within the sections about what they want to use as a name. Some would like it, some not.

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 2 Mar 2016, 10:55am

Steady rider wrote:One option would be to have the Council members made up in part from the groups, say 5 main groups with a delegate from each plus say 10 regional delegates.
In practice CTC type clubs that provide probably most rides would continue and be supported, otherwise the Council members or others may be replaced at some stage.
...

But recent information suggests those putting themselves forward for election to be Councillors will need to be "pre-approved" by the CEO (who seems seems a major force in the loss of the "Touring" and "Club" elements of the CTC).

And those same reports indicate that the CEO is looking to reduce the number of Councillors. And with only CEO approved Councillors I can't see a Touring division getting anything.

Ian

beardy
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby beardy » 2 Mar 2016, 11:06am

I am not sure that a "touring" division would expect much.

I am pretty resigned to the club being "lost" and now being a Charity.
I think that most riders in the sections would be happy to continue with a "live and let live" attitude to Cycling UK. Pretty much like affiliated clubs but still bearing the name CTC and with a closer agreement and a federation with the other CTC sections.

Cycling UK could look on it as just another way of supporting cycling in the UK.

Steady rider
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 2 Mar 2016, 11:18am

The CEO takes instructions from Council and Chair, he would be expected to contribute and advise. There is no provision in the Constitution for the CEO to take on a "pre-approved' approach for Councillors. Unless Council approve of a change and ideally ask the membership via an AGM motion nothing should change.

The name change needs to keep existing support and gain extra support, avoid conflict if at all possible. A short list of names and arrive at 2 to choose from.

beardy
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby beardy » 2 Mar 2016, 11:23am

I have two thoughts on that.

I dont think that situation exists any longer. After the vote the CTC became a charity at that point we lost all say in what happens.
I dont think that the vast majority of CTC "members*" really give a hoot and will rubber stamp what ever proposal is presented to them, out of trust.

*As compared to the minority who do section rides and visit this forum.