DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Vorpal » 2 Mar 2016, 11:47am

beardy wrote:I have two thoughts on that.

I dont think that situation exists any longer. After the vote the CTC became a charity at that point we lost all say in what happens.
I dont think that the vast majority of CTC "members*" really give a hoot and will rubber stamp what ever proposal is presented to them, out of trust.

*As compared to the minority who do section rides and visit this forum.

Perhaps not *all* say. Councillors are still elected, but I think some changes will be required to align the governance with the goals of a charity (and the requirements from the Charity Commission).

That said, with such a small percentage of members voting, the biggest enemy to 'having a say' is passive acquiescence.
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 2 Mar 2016, 7:50pm

Philip Benstead wrote:... Regarding the voting of the chair I am getting my years incorrect. On one of the votes for charity status it is my recollection it was the chairs proxies that permitted to be past. ...

2010AGM. If Motion 8 had been defeated, Motions 9 & 10 would not have been put to a vote. Motions 8 and 9 required a simple majority and were passed. Motion 10 was for changes to the Memorandum of Association requiring a 75% majority of those voting and was defeated.

Anyone wishing to revisit the arguments over the Chair's legitimate use of undirected proxy votes can read them here.

Jeff Tollerman's Poll of the Whole Club was a re-run of Motion 8. There were no proxy votes in the Poll of the Whole Club which endorsed the Motion, 75% v 25%.

2011 AGM. Motion 1 was for changes to the MoA, again requiring a 75% majority of those voting and was passed. History tells me it was passed but I've spent some time looking for a breakdown of the results without success and I'm getting more than a little bored with raking over the matter time and time again.

This was expected to be the end of the matter however the Charity Commission asked for further changes to the MoA, which went to the 2012 AGM, result covered previously on this thread.
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 4 Mar 2016, 6:42am

This article can be found on LinkedIn and was written by Shivaji Shivapadasundaram who is the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor
It was not written nor commissioned nor endorsed by the CTC, it council or members of its council and does not represent their view or policy.

IMHO you can see how some could interpret this as a way to reduce CTC members control / Influence of the CTC by encouraging CTC Member groups to become affiliates groups.
It should be noted I understand there are 186 local member groups plus informal groups, whilst there is over 800 affiliate groups.

IMHO The writing on the wall for local groups, make them become affiliate groups so CTC members lose control and the Council will become self-appointed Oligarchy

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/governan ... =prof-post


By Shivaji Shivapadasundaram

Governance in Federated Charities
Mar 3, 2016
• 34 views
• 4 Likes

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Some of the highest profile social care charities in the UK - including Mind, Carers Trust and YMCA - have federated structures, where a network of independent local charities are overseen by a national charity.
Some have evolved organically from grass roots support groups and continue to be driven by the passion of local volunteers loosely coordinated by a national body with a particular focus on political influencing. Others have taken a more planned approach, delivering services locally through a tightly controlled national structure.
At their best, federated charities have the scale and influence to take a place on the national stage, while remaining responsive to local needs. Oft-cited challenges, include:
• the difficulty in securing quick change in a complex organisation
• friction over geographic ‘areas of benefit’;
• the need to manage service quality across a range of member charities that differ widely in size and nature;
• the need to communicate the value of the federal structure – and be transparent with funders about associated costs;
• the need for central bodies to demonstrate they give their members value for money;
In the current financial environment, many of these challenges are brought into relief. As social care charities of all sorts seek to increase their income, diversify income streams and reduce costs, they face important questions, including:
• How to work together to bid for and win contracts to deliver public services?
• How can the central office add most value? What role should it play in helping local members reduce costs?
• How can the central charity help member charities to be more effective, while encouraging innovation?
• How can the members and the central body best co-operate to develop and market new branded services?
• What are the implications for governance of a federated structure – how can the members of a federation and its national body work together to achieve change?
We will be exploring these issues above at a workshop on 10 May 2016 from 10:00 - 14:00 at Anthony Collins Solicitors LLP - Get Directions.
This practical workshop provides an opportunity to consider recent legal developments in the context of federated charities and share knowledge and ideas with people from other federated charities.
To develop the agenda I have consulted people from a number of national federations - and there is still time to refine it. If you have thoughts on the issues that are most important to federated charities, please get in touch - or comment below.
Book here.
For more information
Contact Shivaji Shiva.
Last edited by Philip Benstead on 5 Mar 2016, 4:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
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Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 4 Mar 2016, 9:09am

The article quotes YMCA as an example of a federated charity. If you do a search for YMCA on the Charity Commission register it returns 239 results. Doubtless there are a few results that do not relate to the Young Men's Christian Association but the vast majority are separately constituted YMCA local charity groups, a federated charity structure.

Do the same search on CTC and it returns 12 results, only two of which relate to our CTC, the Cyclists' Touring Club and the former CTC Charitable Trust. CTC does not have a federated charity structure. The MGs are not subsidary charities.

Whilst Shivaji Shivapadasundaram is the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor I can see no legitimate reason to suggest his comments in the article relate to CTC MGs.

Philip Benstead wrote:...
IMHO The writing on the wall for local groups, make them become affiliate groups so CTC members lose control and the Council will become self-appointed Oligarchy. ...

I do not accept the article as evidence that the writing is on the wall for MGs. Clearly a significant number of MGs find the AG package more attractive, I cannot deny that is a matter for concern.

MGs do not vote at AGMs, take part in Polls of the Whole Club or exercise any other democratic control over Council. It is individual members* who vote. Winding up an MG has no effect on an individual CTC member's democratic rights.

*Affiliated Membership (only available through AGs) does not confer voting rights. Membership of an AG does not prohibit an individual from choosing Full Membership rather than Affiliated Memebrship. CTC view Affiliated Membership as a stepping stone to Full Membership and the "upgrade" is actively promoted.
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 4 Mar 2016, 10:47am

Philip Benstead wrote:https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/governance-federated-charities-shivaji-shiva?trk=prof-post


IMHO The writing on the wall for local groups, make them become affiliate groups so CTC members lose control and the Council will become self-appointed Oligarchy



By Shivaji Shivapadasundaram
CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor
Governance in Federated Charities
Mar 3, 2016
• 34 views
• 4 Likes


Philip

Are you misleading again? AFAICS the article was written by Shivaji Shiva, Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors. There is no attempt that I can see to attribute his article to his role as the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor. Did you edit it to make it seem something it was not and hope we wouldn't notice? Because this is what I get if I do a cut and paste on the article:

Shivaji Shiva

Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors
Follow
Governance in Federated Charities
Mar 3, 2016

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 4 Mar 2016, 12:59pm

http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... telist.pdf

The CTC Shivaji Shiva
Honorary Consulting Solicitor
Committee(s): Cyclists’ Defence Fund
Anthony Collins Solicitors
LLP
134 Edmund Street
Birmingham
B3 2ES
Ph: 0121 214 3693
Fax:
Mob: 07841 499 606
Em: shivaji.shiva@ctc.org.uk

The thinking may go towards what is mentioned or may be one option. The CTC being both a charity and a club have two main roles. It is good to know what issues and approaches may be considered. I am not up on all the pros and cons involved. Keeping the structure simple or not too complicated with clear objectives and supporting cyclists is probably what most members want, having a vote on important issues may also help.

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 4 Mar 2016, 1:04pm

Steady rider wrote:http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/ctcnationalcouncil-currentwebsitelist.pdf

The CTC Shivaji Shiva
Honorary Consulting Solicitor
Committee(s): Cyclists’ Defence Fund
Anthony Collins Solicitors
LLP
134 Edmund Street
Birmingham
B3 2ES
Ph: 0121 214 3693
Fax:
Mob: 07841 499 606
Em: shivaji.shiva@ctc.org.uk

The thinking may go towards what is mentioned or may be one option. The CTC being both a charity and a club have two main roles. It is good to know what issues and approaches may be considered. I am not up on all the pros and cons involved. Keeping the structure simple or not too complicated with clear objectives and supporting cyclists is probably what most members want, having a vote on important issues may also help.


I know he is the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor but the article was not written in that capacity nor did he attribute that capacity to himself in the article and its title. But someone cut out his law firm attribution and decided to substitute his CTC one to make it look like he was writing it in that capacity. Why? It wasn't an accident - it required a deliberate change being made,

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 4 Mar 2016, 1:32pm

Shivaji Shiva
Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors

Yes you are right, the CTC bit was added in on purpose. I suppose readers of this site would want to know his connection with the CTC but the link provided does not include the CTC.

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 4 Mar 2016, 3:05pm

Steady rider wrote:Shivaji Shiva
Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors

Yes you are right, the CTC bit was added in on purpose. I suppose readers of this site would want to know his connection with the CTC but the link provided does not include the CTC.


That's fine and if you wanted to do that transparently you would add a comment in the pre-amble to note that he is also the CTC Honorary Solicitor. What you don't do is change it so that it looks like it was part of the original article. That is just deliberately misleading and making it look like he wrote the article in his capacity with the CTC.

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 4 Mar 2016, 3:19pm

Could this be the fabled writing on the wall? :wink:

Image
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby robgul » 4 Mar 2016, 3:51pm

gaz wrote:Could this be the fabled writing on the wall? :wink:

Image


Brilliant!

- perhaps the similar "CAUTION Cyclists Touring Club" sign in Richmond Park at the top of the steep hill down to Ham Gate should be re-labelled "Slippery Slope"

Rob

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 4 Mar 2016, 3:58pm

Re-labelled? Don't you mean rebranded :wink: .
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 5 Mar 2016, 2:41pm

gaz wrote:I do not keep back issues of Cycle to trawl through and see if there have been either explicit or implicit mentions of "refreshing the brand".

A little dig around finds explicit reference to a change of name and logo together with Council's intention not to refer the matter to an AGM.
Cycle December 2013.
Feedback on CTC’s future
...
We’ve listened to your views on the Cyclists’ Touring Club’s current trading name (CTC), our logo, and all the other ways we present ourselves. We are now testing a number of options for our name and logo (including the current ones) with groups of current and potential members. Our elected Councillors will review all that we’ve learned and decide how we’ll present ourselves in the future. ...
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Mar 2016, 4:29pm

Steady rider wrote:Shivaji Shiva
Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors

Yes you are right, the CTC bit was added in on purpose. I suppose readers of this site would want to know his connection with the CTC but the link provided does not include the CTC.


See my update
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Mar 2016, 4:33pm

TonyR wrote:
Steady rider wrote:Shivaji Shiva
Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors

Yes you are right, the CTC bit was added in on purpose. I suppose readers of this site would want to know his connection with the CTC but the link provided does not include the CTC.


I would suggest you read my email , you are misleading people as to my action or inaction on the CTC Council.

That's fine and if you wanted to do that transparently you would add a comment in the pre-amble to note that he is also the CTC Honorary Solicitor. What you don't do is change it so that it looks like it was part of the original article. That is just deliberately misleading and making it look like he wrote the article in his capacity with the CTC.


This article can be found on LinkedIn and was written by Shivaji Shivapadasundaram who is the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor
It was not written nor commissioned nor endorsed by the CTC, it council or members of its council and does not represent their view or policy.

IMHO you can see how some could interpret this as a way to reduce CTC members control / Influence of the CTC by encouraging CTC Member groups to become affiliates groups.
It should be noted I understand there are 186 local member groups plus informal groups, whilst there is over 800 affiliate groups.

IMHO The writing on the wall for local groups, make them become affiliate groups so CTC members lose control and the Council will become self-appointed Oligarchy

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/governan ... =prof-post


By Shivaji Shivapadasundaram

Governance in Federated Charities
Mar 3, 2016
• 34 views
• 4 Likes

0 Comments
• Share on LinkedIn
• Share on Facebook
• Share on Twitter
Some of the highest profile social care charities in the UK - including Mind, Carers Trust and YMCA - have federated structures, where a network of independent local charities are overseen by a national charity.
Some have evolved organically from grass roots support groups and continue to be driven by the passion of local volunteers loosely coordinated by a national body with a particular focus on political influencing. Others have taken a more planned approach, delivering services locally through a tightly controlled national structure.
At their best, federated charities have the scale and influence to take a place on the national stage, while remaining responsive to local needs. Oft-cited challenges, include:
• the difficulty in securing quick change in a complex organisation
• friction over geographic ‘areas of benefit’;
• the need to manage service quality across a range of member charities that differ widely in size and nature;
• the need to communicate the value of the federal structure – and be transparent with funders about associated costs;
• the need for central bodies to demonstrate they give their members value for money;
In the current financial environment, many of these challenges are brought into relief. As social care charities of all sorts seek to increase their income, diversify income streams and reduce costs, they face important questions, including:
• How to work together to bid for and win contracts to deliver public services?
• How can the central office add most value? What role should it play in helping local members reduce costs?
• How can the central charity help member charities to be more effective, while encouraging innovation?
• How can the members and the central body best co-operate to develop and market new branded services?
• What are the implications for governance of a federated structure – how can the members of a federation and its national body work together to achieve change?
We will be exploring these issues above at a workshop on 10 May 2016 from 10:00 - 14:00 at Anthony Collins Solicitors LLP - Get Directions.
This practical workshop provides an opportunity to consider recent legal developments in the context of federated charities and share knowledge and ideas with people from other federated charities.
To develop the agenda I have consulted people from a number of national federations - and there is still time to refine it. If you have thoughts on the issues that are most important to federated charities, please get in touch - or comment below.
Book here.
For more information
Contact Shivaji Shiva.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic