It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
TonyR
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It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby TonyR » 5 Mar 2016, 9:42pm

Philip Benstead wrote:TonyR I did tell some CTC members about it


Ah that counts does it. Told a few CTC mates? Why didn't you say it on here - you've been on the forum long enough. Can you point to any point over the past two years when you pointed out on here that Council (which included you) decided that Council would be making the final decision on branding and name changes, and you disagreed with it? Why wait until the branding exercise was complete, all the money had been spent and it was ready to launch before challenging a decision you were party to and have known about for two years?

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Philip Benstead
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Mar 2016, 9:47pm

TonyR wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:TonyR I did tell some CTC members about it but not you you appear to be unable to read my text above.


Ah that counts does it. Told a few CTC mates? Why didn't you say it on here - you've been on the forum long enough. Can you point to any point over the past two years when you pointed out on here that Council (which included you) decided that Council would be making the final decision on branding and name changes, and you disagreed with it? Why wait until the branding exercise was complete, all the money had been spent and it was ready to launch before challenging a decision you were party to and have known about for two years?
look do want me repeat all the conversation I had with fellow councillorcregarding this subject also i was under collective responsibility read Councillor code of conduct have I made my self clear. IMHO the more important issue is the governance that will take power away from member and I complain about that I even complain about minutes for Oct but they were reject


B
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

TonyR
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby TonyR » 5 Mar 2016, 10:01pm

Philip Benstead wrote:look do want me repeat all the conversation I had with fellow councillorcregarding this subject also i


No, I want you to tell me where in the past two years you have drawn the attention of the forum or members to the fact that you and Council decided that Council would make the decision on the rebranding and name change and if you didn't why you waited until all the money had been spent on rebranding and it was ready to go before you told everyone it was wrong that Council should decide, When are you going to start taking responsibility for your decisions and stop wasting members and CTC money trying to reverse a process you initiated and supported for the past two years.

was under collective responsibility read Councillor code of conduct have I made my self clear


And you still are under collective responsibility for the decisions you made then. I'm just holding you to account for what you did as a Councillor just as you want to hold Council to account for what they've done. Why is that a problem or is it only other Councillors who should be held to account for their actions?

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Philip Benstead
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Mar 2016, 10:06pm

TonyR wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:look do want me repeat all the conversation I had with fellow councillorcregarding this subject also i


No, I want you to tell me where in the past two years you have drawn the attention of the forum or members to the fact that you and Council decided that Council would make the decision on the rebranding and name change and if you didn't why you waited until all the money had been spent on rebranding and it was ready to go before you told everyone it was wrong that Council should decide, When are you going to start taking responsibility for your decisions and stop wasting members and CTC money trying to reverse a process you initiated and supported for the past two years.

was under collective responsibility read Councillor code of conduct have I made my self clear


And you still are under collective responsibility for the decisions you made then. I'm just holding you to account for what you did as a Councillor just as you want to hold Council to account for what they've done. Why is that a problem or is it only other Councillors who should be held to account for their actions?
both decision were made after i left the council. I have support of some serving Councillor <moderated> the best thing to ignore you ..q
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

TonyR
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby TonyR » 6 Mar 2016, 3:20am

Philip Benstead wrote:both decision were made after i left the council. I have support of some servering Councillor


No, the decision to give Council the authority to make the decision on a change of branding and name was made two years ago when you were a Councillor. What happened after you left Council was just implementation of a decision you as a Councillor made.


<moderated> the best thing to ignore you ..q


That's the easy way out isn't it. Remember as a Councillor you signed up to the following in the Code of Conduct

1.7. I will seek to be accountable for my actions as a trustee and Councillor of CTC and will submit myself to whatever scrutiny is appropriate.

3.4. I will participate in collective decision making, accept a majority decision of the Council and will not act individually unless specifically authorised to do so.

5.4 ......... Any public comments I make about CTC will be considered and in line with organisational policy, whether I make them as an individual or as a trustee.

So please be accountable for your actions as a Councillor of the CTC and account for why you gave the authority to make the decision on a change of branding and name to Council and why you are now objecting to Council having that authority you gave them.

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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Barred1 » 6 Mar 2016, 8:59am

The post above was made at 0320 !!!!!!!!!!! - surely there are better things to be doing - like sleeping [Unless you work shifts] at that time of the night??? ... and if it was saying anything new then that may just be useful.

B1
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Steady rider
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Steady rider » 6 Mar 2016, 9:43am

It all shows how difficult it can become in changing the main name used. more time for members to have discussed and options for names put forward,
Two choices put to an AGM and proceed. Council making major decisions without a vote is prone to more objections, members feeling being left out, not fully understanding the pros and cons.

Having two major issues close together does not really help either. Council could cancel both and have a consultation and time to reflect. Changes that cause too much division are not a good way forward. There are other approaches that could be used that would provide a positive image and not cause major divisions.

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gaz
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby gaz » 6 Mar 2016, 10:38am

The Charity Conversion had to go to AGM, it was outside of Council's powers. There was consultation, there was discussion of the pros and cons, there was time to reflect. There was and still is division over the issue. Taking matters to an AGM does not guarantee unity.

Council have approved a change in trading name and branding, a decision which is within their powers. There was consultation with the membership. The discussion of the pros and cons and time to reflect largely happened within Council, the elected representatives of the membership. The trading name will change from CTC to Cycling UK, logos and straplines will be changed too and many other things that are "the brand".

I see two main reasons for possible objections:

1: Objection in principle, i.e. Despite having the power to act, Council should have presented such an important decision to an AGM.
2: Objection to the brand itself, i.e. "Cycling UK" is the 'wrong' choice.

If the change in trading name had seen a return to Cyclists' Touring Club with the Winged Wheel logo and associated heritage straplines, I doubt that many of the current objectors would be up in arms on principle.

IMO the objections are about the chosen brand itself, i.e. that Council made the 'wrong' choice.

The Poll of the Whole Club intends to ask the members to endorse or reject Council's decision. Should the members choose to endorse "Cycling UK" will the current objectors then agree that Council made the 'right' decision? Somehow I don't think so.

If the members choose to reject "Cycling UK" then we have the scenario that the Charity Commission outlined when it recommended deletion of Article 11. Council will be in a legal minefield, bound by the membership to follow a course of action that they did not wish to take.
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Velocio » 6 Mar 2016, 11:05am

...the title of this board is 'A possible brand refresh for the CTC'; this gives the impression that it is 'possible' the 'brand' will be 'refreshed' - it also gives the impression that the decision to change the name of our Club is not yet final and can be reversed if the membership wish it.
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gaz
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby gaz » 6 Mar 2016, 11:50am

At the time this forum board was launched (2013?) the title reflected the situation, it was "A possible brand refresh for the CTC". I don't know who chose the title of the board.

The decision to rebrand was confirmed on 23 January 2016. Perhaps the board title should have been rebranded too :wink: .

Edit: I see the board title has been rebranded "The CTC brand refresh".
Last edited by gaz on 8 Mar 2016, 10:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steady rider
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Steady rider » 6 Mar 2016, 12:22pm

The decision to rebrand was confirmed on 23 January 2016


Until a decision was made, 23 Jan, the membership would not know for sure what the decision was or the name to be proposed.

I would consider suspending the re-brand and changes that may occur to governance. One option would for two names for next year's AGM 2017 to settle the name issue. Similarly for governance, if proposed changes are to be suggested. Cooling the whole process. In the mean time, I would suggest looking at other options to promote cycling and the club, whatever name is used.

Pushing ahead now with a re-brand or a poll of the whole club may be mixed with division, not the best approach perhaps.

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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Psamathe » 6 Mar 2016, 12:31pm

Steady rider wrote:
The decision to rebrand was confirmed on 23 January 2016


Until a decision was made, 23 Jan, the membership would not know for sure what the decision was or the name to be proposed.

I would consider suspending the re-brand and changes that may occur to governance. One option would for two names for next year's AGM 2017 to settle the name issue. Similarly for governance, if proposed changes are to be suggested. Cooling the whole process. In the mean time, I would suggest looking at other options to promote cycling and the club, whatever name is used.

Pushing ahead now with a re-brand or a poll of the whole club may be mixed with division, not the best approach perhaps.

I am actually surprised how many members have put their names to the call for a full membership poll. In an organisation that seems to suffer from such low vote/election turnouts I interpret the numbers wanting a member poll as an indication of strong feeling.

Of course others can compare the numbers on the petition with the full membership, etc. and that would be fair had the petition organiser had contact details for the membership. But with little more that a Farcebook page (which I expect only a few active members would read - I can't even view the page) and posts on a few forums a lot of people have responded.

I would think that the the motivation of the numbers on the petition would be open to interpretation. I can see that some might not like the name and genuinely seek alternatives. I can also see that some might not like the way the organisation is now operating and the direction it is going and want to remind the organisation that it has members and they do matter ... Either way the organisation need to see this as a wake-up call.

Ian

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gaz
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby gaz » 6 Mar 2016, 12:50pm

Psamathe wrote:I am actually surprised how many members have put their names to the call for a full membership poll. In an organisation that seems to suffer from such low vote/election turnouts I interpret the numbers wanting a member poll as an indication of strong feeling.



Philip Benstead mentions having almost 400 signatures at the time he chose to submit the petition.

The last poll of the whole club requested by Jeff Tollerman in 2010 attracted 600 signatures. Its intention to overturn the AGM motion that enabled the Charity conversion process to begin was defeated 75% to 25%.

This is a new poll on a new issue and the result of the poll will show the level of discontent across the membership. I have no intention of pre-judging the result of the poll.
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Psamathe
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby Psamathe » 6 Mar 2016, 1:02pm

gaz wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I am actually surprised how many members have put their names to the call for a full membership poll. In an organisation that seems to suffer from such low vote/election turnouts I interpret the numbers wanting a member poll as an indication of strong feeling.



Philip Benstead mentions having almost 400 signatures at the time he chose to submit the petition.

The last poll of the whole club requested by Jeff Tollerman in 2010 attracted 600 signatures. Its intention to overturn the AGM motion that enabled the Charity conversion process to begin was defeated 75% to 25%.

This is a new poll on a new issue and the result of the poll will show the level of discontent across the membership. I have no intention of pre-judging the result of the poll.

I suspect the numbers of people signing a petition will be limited by the the available means to make people aware that there is a petition. So on a few forums and a restricted Facebook page (plus work of mouth) does not give you a large group of potential signatories. At the other extreme, wete the CTC to make contact details or message forwarding to all members available then I'd expect more signatories.

Also, the time the petition is available can limit the number of signatories. Clearly Philip has submitted the petition as soon as possible so members can have their say as soon as possible and the organisation can they take whatever action results as soon as possible (minimising the impact). He could have waited longer (e.g. until the day before an announcement) which would have allowed word to spread more, more time for people who are not quick at getting round to things, etc. so more signatories - but that would have been far more disruptive to the organisation (and made them look even more stupid, given the change is already announced).

Ian

TonyR
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Re: It's all in the name - Cyclists' TOURING club

Postby TonyR » 6 Mar 2016, 2:22pm

Barred1 wrote:The post above was made at 0320 !!!!!!!!!!! - surely there are better things to be doing - like sleeping [Unless you work shifts] at that time of the night??? ... and if it was saying anything new then that may just be useful.

B1


You forgot the option of my being in a different time zone this week/weekend. But thank you for your concern for my sleep.